Takeda_Shingen
Sergeant Knight
Herger clearly is intrested in Eadric's hair 
Anglo-Saxon Naming - for those wanting an authentic name
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Sergeant Knight
Lily-Livered River Pirate
Sergeant Knight at Arms
Well the creepy smile is there already! I don't think I'll ever get used to it.
Question to Eadric: would you perhaps know the old Saxon (early middle ages) word for buzzard or 'buizerd'? Want to know it for re-enactment purposes, a friend of mine should have it as his nickname. The words I found in an online Anglo-Saxon dictionary were 'tysca' and 'mushafik' but I'm not sure if that is correct and you might know something more.
Preferably I'd have it in Germanic Saxon as was spoken in the Western part of present Germany, but Anglo-Saxon should work too if that's not possible.
Thanks in advance!
Preferably I'd have it in Germanic Saxon as was spoken in the Western part of present Germany, but Anglo-Saxon should work too if that's not possible.
Thanks in advance!
Éadric
Knight at Arms
Let's see!
According to Köbler's Altsächsisches Wörterbuch there is one 11th century attestation of Old Saxon mūsara 'buzzard' (literally mūs-ara 'mouse-eagle'), the same word as Old High German mūsaro. Only the former is feminine while the latter is masculine. I see no problem in making a masculine form of the former, to end up with Old Saxon mūsaro.
However, the Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands, in the entry for buizerd, says that the original Germanic name for the animal was *wīwan-. From that word came Dutch wouw, a name presently used for a different bird of prey, namely the (black or red) kite. This Germanic word is not attested in Old Saxon, but *is* attested in its descendant Middle Low German, in the form wīe, and in its sister language Old High German, in the form wīo, though both of them already seem to mean 'kite' as well. On the basis of this information, we can formally reconstruct Old Saxon *wīo, though whether it would mean 'buzzard' or 'kite' I cannot tell you.
If the possibility of his name meaning 'kite' instead of 'buzzard' is not a problem for your friend, he can be either mūsaro or wīo. Otherwise, rather stick to the first.
A final note: a macron above a vowel is an editorial marking that the vowel in question was pronounced long. For Old Saxon, the cirumflex was also used by philologists, in which case you could use: mûsaro and wîo. I myself would prefer an acute accent: músaro and wío, but I'm practically alone in this.
Let me know which he picks!
According to Köbler's Altsächsisches Wörterbuch there is one 11th century attestation of Old Saxon mūsara 'buzzard' (literally mūs-ara 'mouse-eagle'), the same word as Old High German mūsaro. Only the former is feminine while the latter is masculine. I see no problem in making a masculine form of the former, to end up with Old Saxon mūsaro.
However, the Etymologisch Woordenboek van het Nederlands, in the entry for buizerd, says that the original Germanic name for the animal was *wīwan-. From that word came Dutch wouw, a name presently used for a different bird of prey, namely the (black or red) kite. This Germanic word is not attested in Old Saxon, but *is* attested in its descendant Middle Low German, in the form wīe, and in its sister language Old High German, in the form wīo, though both of them already seem to mean 'kite' as well. On the basis of this information, we can formally reconstruct Old Saxon *wīo, though whether it would mean 'buzzard' or 'kite' I cannot tell you.
If the possibility of his name meaning 'kite' instead of 'buzzard' is not a problem for your friend, he can be either mūsaro or wīo. Otherwise, rather stick to the first.
A final note: a macron above a vowel is an editorial marking that the vowel in question was pronounced long. For Old Saxon, the cirumflex was also used by philologists, in which case you could use: mûsaro and wîo. I myself would prefer an acute accent: músaro and wío, but I'm practically alone in this.
Let me know which he picks!
Éadric
Knight at Arms
What you are talking about is not a suffix, but a name element, which, when used as the last part of a name, had the form -wine in Old English and -win in Old Saxon. As word in itself it had the form wine in Old English and wini(!) in Old Saxon.
Germanic naming practices at this time were still rather conservative, so that anyone fashioning a name would generally stick to established name elements. Introducing a new word as a name element would be possible, but compounds like músaro would be most unusual if not unheard of. If your friend insists on being a ‘friend of buzzards’, he would end up with a title rather than a name: músarwini ‘buzzard-friend’ or músarono wini ‘friend of buzzards’.
Therefore I would much rather suggest considering a proper Old Saxon name like Arnwin ‘eagle-friend’, knowing that ‘eagle’ here can be understood as a general word for eagle-like birds of prey, including buzzards. (The Old English form of that name, by the way, is Earnwine.)
Now I have a question for you: when are you gonna take a proper name in this game?
Germanic naming practices at this time were still rather conservative, so that anyone fashioning a name would generally stick to established name elements. Introducing a new word as a name element would be possible, but compounds like músaro would be most unusual if not unheard of. If your friend insists on being a ‘friend of buzzards’, he would end up with a title rather than a name: músarwini ‘buzzard-friend’ or músarono wini ‘friend of buzzards’.
Therefore I would much rather suggest considering a proper Old Saxon name like Arnwin ‘eagle-friend’, knowing that ‘eagle’ here can be understood as a general word for eagle-like birds of prey, including buzzards. (The Old English form of that name, by the way, is Earnwine.)
Now I have a question for you: when are you gonna take a proper name in this game?
Éadric
Knight at Arms
Too generic?! Excuse me while I gasp for air!
*gasps*
Maybe Saxger (or its Anglo-Saxon equivalent Seaxgár) did not appeal to you, but surely there are fine Anglo-Saxon names to choose from? (See the list at the top of the opening post.)
As for Horvakre: I should have known better when you said it meant 'hair-fair' as an ironic statement about your bald head. For unless you are using some dialect I am not familiar with, hor in the Scandinavian languages does not mean 'hair', but 'adultery, fornication'. (It is related to English whore, Dutch hoer.) The proper Danish/Norwegian/Swedish word for 'hair' is hår, while the proper Old Norse term for '(the) hair-fair' was (inn) hárfagri.
The Old English term for such a thing was not attested, but on the basis of the English surname Fairfax, it was probably fægerfeax. Compare the name of Gandalf's horse in the Lord of the Rings: Shadowfax, which literally means 'shadow-hair'.
You could be Seaxgár fægerfeax, if Anglo-Saxon names don't scare you.
*gasps*
Maybe Saxger (or its Anglo-Saxon equivalent Seaxgár) did not appeal to you, but surely there are fine Anglo-Saxon names to choose from? (See the list at the top of the opening post.)
As for Horvakre: I should have known better when you said it meant 'hair-fair' as an ironic statement about your bald head. For unless you are using some dialect I am not familiar with, hor in the Scandinavian languages does not mean 'hair', but 'adultery, fornication'. (It is related to English whore, Dutch hoer.) The proper Danish/Norwegian/Swedish word for 'hair' is hår, while the proper Old Norse term for '(the) hair-fair' was (inn) hárfagri.
The Old English term for such a thing was not attested, but on the basis of the English surname Fairfax, it was probably fægerfeax. Compare the name of Gandalf's horse in the Lord of the Rings: Shadowfax, which literally means 'shadow-hair'.
You could be Seaxgár fægerfeax, if Anglo-Saxon names don't scare you.
'Sword-spear' is indeed too generic a name for my tastes, although I used the word half jokingly.
So I guess I meant hárfagri then, someone once mentioned it to me while I was busy thinking of a name so I went with it. Apparantly I'm not great at Old Norse spelling! But to answer your question again, I would indeed want a nice authentic name for Vikingr, but I'd like to just stumble upon something. Maybe I'll just go back to Saxger. I will use Seaxgár for the event anyway
So I guess I meant hárfagri then, someone once mentioned it to me while I was busy thinking of a name so I went with it. Apparantly I'm not great at Old Norse spelling! But to answer your question again, I would indeed want a nice authentic name for Vikingr, but I'd like to just stumble upon something. Maybe I'll just go back to Saxger. I will use Seaxgár for the event anyway
Éadric
Knight at Arms
Bedric said:
Well look at that! I knew Bédríc was a possible name, but I wasn’t able to find it in the Onomasticon Anglo-Saxonicum, which by all accounts should be a rather comprehensive reference work.
Beaduríc is definitely the more handsome name. And if you’re worried about not living up to such a name, remember that most Anglo-Saxon names (as Germanic names in general) are rather chesty and suggestive of great skill in battle. In fact, why not go for the most pompous name out there?
At any rate, you aren’t stuck with just two options. There are many beautiful names to choose from. I added a large selection of names to the opening post of this thread not too long ago. Perhaps you might find one or two to your liking. And if I may be so bold, don’t listen to Barabas and consider one of the more common names. They are indispensable!
You don't have to worry about that dear Bas, you are already a very special boy...Barabas said:
Éadric
Knight at Arms
Well, like I said in my opening post, it's more reliable than most lists of Anglo-Saxon names out there (since most include modern and absolute non-names), but it's still flawed indeed.
At any rate, I don't think Béd- in Bédríc means 'prayer' (or that it is from Brythonic). I think it's just the Old English reflex of the Old Germanic name element *baudiz 'leader, commander'. For the vowel quality, compare the development of Old English scéne (also scíne, scýne) from Old Germanic *skauniz.
If so, the name has its Old High German equivalent in 7th century Bauderich (as listed by Förstemann in his Altdeutsches Namenbuch).
At any rate, I don't think Béd- in Bédríc means 'prayer' (or that it is from Brythonic). I think it's just the Old English reflex of the Old Germanic name element *baudiz 'leader, commander'. For the vowel quality, compare the development of Old English scéne (also scíne, scýne) from Old Germanic *skauniz.
If so, the name has its Old High German equivalent in 7th century Bauderich (as listed by Förstemann in his Altdeutsches Namenbuch).
That sounds plausible, although I don't like *skauniz as an example because of the funny things that palatal diphthongization can bring about. The normal development should be *baudiz> *bīede, right? The most similar example I can find is *flautiz > OE flīete, but I suppose if *baudiz was lost from OE vocabulary, the name element might have got mixed with bēd or with anything else.
edit: OH WAIT, Bosworth-Toller says flīete is related to flēt, with the same meaning.
edit: OH WAIT, Bosworth-Toller says flīete is related to flēt, with the same meaning.
Éadric
Knight at Arms
Well, another example then: Old English dréman, drýman 'to rejoice' from Old Germanic *draumijanan. My sword is called Dréma 'rejoicer'.
Yeah but that involves causative endings and many syllables and what not. Bear with me, I'm finding better examples
*naudiz > nīd, nēd, nēod, whichever way you felt like spelling it apparently
*raukiz > rēc
Ok, I think that'll suffice. I started looking for examples at AU, and I'm now at RAU in the Handbook of Germanic Etymology. It seems clear now that that's where the bēd element comes from, although it probably wasn't very popular because the word itself had been lost in OE.
Gotta say, I still like Beadurīc better, but I have a newfound appreciation for Bēdrīc now.
*naudiz > nīd, nēd, nēod, whichever way you felt like spelling it apparently
*raukiz > rēc
Ok, I think that'll suffice. I started looking for examples at AU, and I'm now at RAU in the Handbook of Germanic Etymology. It seems clear now that that's where the bēd element comes from, although it probably wasn't very popular because the word itself had been lost in OE.
Gotta say, I still like Beadurīc better, but I have a newfound appreciation for Bēdrīc now.
