Dev Diary Feedback: Tournament Enhancements

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Windyplains

Grandmaster Knight
Dev Diary: Tournament Enhancements
As a new idea for posting these developer updates I wanted to open up a thread where people could post their concerns, suggestions or questions of curiosity.  So feel free to let us know what you think!

------ Added Information ------
Here is a summary of all of the changes coming to tournaments in Floris 2.5.  Since the dev diary was done while the changes were still being developed I wanted to update what was known.

Tournament Play Enhancements 1.3

Appearance
  • Post combat ranking panel
    • Displays the points earned by each competitor during the last round.
    • Can alter display to show overall tournament ranking.
  • In combat display
    • Displays the current number of points earned and remaining members for each team.[/i]
      • Displays the top five individual troop point totals during a round.
      • Displays length of the current match and the stalemate timer if necessary.
      • Includes an option to disable it from showing.
  • Team visual aspects.
    • All teams now have horses that match their team colors.
    • All normal and enhanced armor options are color matched for their respective team.
  • Unique naming system for generic troops.
    • Default troops are given a simple unique name.
    • 5 “veteran” troops exist with a title prior to their name.
    • 3 “champion” troops exist with a title prior to their name and a home city after it.

Customization Options
  • Difficulty Slider
    • Players can choose between 24 difficulty settings that determine the number of teams, the size of each team and some generic AI behavior routines.
    • The difficulty setting from each round is totaled up to determine cumulative tournament difficulty when calculating final rewards.
    • Difficulty can be set to random.
  • Choice of weapons used during the tournament.
    • Players are given three options for determining their equipment within a tournament.  These options include:
      • Choice of weapons which now including a polearm that isn’t a lance.
      • An upgrade to their armor.
      • An upgrade to their weapons.
      • A significantly better shield.
      • A horse.  Additionally this choice may be taken twice to gain a warhorse instead.
    • Any combination of the above choices may be made up to your three choices.
    • You may select an “always randomize” option that will give you randomly chosen sets of weapons that work well together.  You won’t end up with a crossbow and bow for example.  This provides for a more native design.
    • These same options may be applied for any companions in your party.  Each companion may have unique settings.
  • Choice of team.
    • You can select to be on any specific team you wish.  This choice may be changed every round or left permanent.
    • You can select “random team” to keep a more native design.
  • The “Never Spawn” feature (Default OFF) may be enabled for any companion to prevent them to joining future tournaments.  This is primarily to keep out non-combat oriented companions if desired.
  • Additional visual options not covered elsewhere:
    • Viewing teammate’s damage – Default OFF
    • Viewing when achievement awards are earned in combat – Default OFF
    • Viewing when team points are awarded – Default OFF
    • Viewing when personal points are awarded – Default OFF

    Gameplay Changes
    • Most tournament weapons have been rebalanced in some manner for better gameplay.
    • Tournament troops have been significantly boosted in power.
      • There is a level scaling option that will improve AI troop levels proportional to your own for maintaining a similar difficulty progression.
      • Enabling level scaling will improve item rewards on a tournament win.
      • The default setting for level scaling is OFF which means troops will stay at a static level as you progress.  It should be noted that troops cannot “level down” so once their level is improved by turning level scaling on you cannot revert them back to their original default levels.
    • The system for winning a tournament has been completely overhauled.
      • Tournaments are no longer won by being the last person to survive.  Instead a point system has been implemented with 1st, 2nd and 3rd placements earning rewards.
      • Points are awarded upon several criteria as follows:
        • 1 point is awarded for each person you defeat.
        • 2 points are awarded for surviving a round.
        • 1 point is awarded to each member of the team that scored the highest in a round.
      • Being knocked out in a round will no longer cause you to be eliminated from a tournament.
        • Your team can still attempt to “win the round” for points.
        • The ability to tab out of a match is disabled after player death to prevent cheating.
    • Dynamic Weapon Switching - AI also can randomly choose weapon sets that may include a ranged weapon, but will always include a melee weapon.  The AI has been improved to switch between these weapons as appropriate.

    Rewards & Betting
    • Performance achievements can be earned each round based on specific criteria.  Each achievement awards a small amount of experience (scaled with your level) and renown.  These achievements are listed after each round on the post-combat ranking display.  The achievements that currently exist are:
      • Swiftest Cut - Awarded for scoring the first defeat in a round.
      • Fiercest Competitor - Awarded for scoring the most defeats in a round.  (min: 3 players)
      • Dominant Presence - Awarded for scoring 25+% of defeats in a round.  (min: 12 players)
      • Legendary Presence - Awarded for scoring 50+% of defeats in a round.  (min: 10 players)
      • Mythical Presence - Awarded for scoring 100% of defeats in a round.  (min: 10 players)
      • Cautious Approach - Awarded for surviving a round without scoring any points.
    • New Betting System
      • Bets are placed each round based on your team surviving the match.  These bets are paid out after each round so the system is no longer designed in an “all or nothing” setup.
      • The odds of a bet are calculated before the match based on cumulative level & renown of each competitor on each team.
      • Your bet is set in the options panel using a slider and will be applied each round without having to reset it as opposed to clicking through menus in native tournaments.
    • Final Tournament Rewards
      • The final experience and renown awarded for winning a tournament has been increased as a reward for the increased difficulty of tournaments.
      • A lesser version of the 1st place rewards is also earned by 2nd rank participant (50%) and the 3rd rank participant (25%).
      • Experience awarded is determined based upon cumulative difficulty throughout the tournament.  The harder you set each match the higher this reward will be.  It has a level scaling cap applied to prevent too much experience earned at lower levels while still providing beneficial experience at higher levels.
        • Turning off “Renown Scaling” will cause experience gained to equal the native amount. (+250 denars)
      • Money awarded is also determined based upon cumulative difficulty throughout the tournament.
      • Winning a tournament will gain you reputation with the town it is held in.  Cumulative wins will gain even greater reputation amounts based on becoming a crowd favorite.
      • Items are awarded for winning the tournament with lesser items going to the 2nd & 3rd place winners.  This item reward is improved as you gain in level and that level bonus is greatly improved by enabling the level scaling feature.
      • The renown awarded for winning is modified by your level and current renown.  The lower you are in level or renown the higher your renown gain will be.  This quickly scales down to a minimum value (+10 renown) as you level up.
        • Turning off “Renown Scaling” will cause renown gained to equal the native amount. (+20 renown)
      • The nobility in the town will take notice of your wins.
        • Lords will react to your win based upon their personality type, your gender and their relationship with you.  Their reaction will alter their relation with you.
        • Ladies will react to your win based upon their personality type, your gender and their relationship with you.  Their reaction will alter their relation with you.

    NOTE: For individuals who like tinkering with the source code there are additional settings available in the TPE kit.  These settings are detailed in a separate readme file in our new “Documentation” folder included with the source.
 
You can of course also ask any other question you might have regarding 2.5. (Exception - Are we there yet?)
 
I personally dislike level scaling of enemies in any game. I it kills joy of levelling and becoming stronger. I think better idea would to make several kinds tournaments. From the easiest (with least reward) to toughest which would available from the very beginning of the game. Winning better tournament would give player feeling of development of protagonist
 
Are custom loadouts be limited to what was previously available in each specific tournament--will we be seeing crossbowmen and mounted lancers in a Sargoth melee anytime soon?  I like the scaling renown / city relation / lord relations idea.
 
I have to agree with Hyde911. For me scaling kills the immersion a bit too much:/ What I would prefer is a number of events in a tournament with different enemy types, difficulty, prizes and renown needed to get in(the available tiers might even differ form town to town). It might even make sense to make the low-tier events on-foot only. Of course I have no idea if it's even possible to implement such a system :wink:
 
Great feedback everyone and exactly what I am looking for.  I can see a base level scale may not be a popular choice, but how about it being tied to the difficulty setting?  In other words at a "easy" setting only basic enemies are introduced.  On medium, some basic enemies as well as slightly tougher ones are added.  On hard, mostly tougher enemies are introduced?  Then

wingcutangel said:
What I would prefer is a number of events in a tournament with different enemy types, difficulty, prizes and renown needed to get in(the available tiers might even differ form town to town). It might even make sense to make the low-tier events on-foot only. Of course I have no idea if it's even possible to implement such a system :wink:
This is exactly where this kit is headed, but it is not there yet.  There are some elements that would fit this idea nice already in the works, but may not be ready for release when 2.5 comes out.  Some of these ideas may include village festival activities like archery, 1v1 fist fights and feats of strength contests.  Again though, these are not likely to be ready prior to 2.5's release.

kolaces said:
Are custom loadouts be limited to what was previously available in each specific tournament--will we be seeing crossbowmen and mounted lancers in a Sargoth melee anytime soon?
They are not limited at all.  Some may feel this removes uniqueness and for those that do they can opt to disable the tournament system and stay with native design.  In future releases I may refine the "random choices" of your enemies to be more consistent with the factions they are drawn from, but this kit is intended to work in most mods vs. just native.  That makes it difficulty to be too faction specific.  I personally couldn't stand being stuck with javelins in various town tournaments since I never built for them which tended to make me less interested in those tournaments.
 
Some of these ideas may include village festival activities like archery, 1v1 fist fights and feats of strength contests.
Sounds like a dream cone true for the tournaments.

That makes it difficulty to be too faction specific.  I personally couldn't stand being stuck with javelins in various town tournaments since I never built for them which tended to make me less interested in those tournaments.
I have to disagree on that. While I like the idea of being able to select a kit prior to battle I wish those kits were tied to the culture of the city holding the tournament. I think abandoning that will take away some of the cultural diversity of the factions (and there is very little of it as is).

Anyways, I don't mean to sound too critical, I'm really excited about this addition. And as a side note if any 3d assets are ever needed I'm a professional 3d artist so I'll be more than happy to help.
 
wingcutangel said:
I have to disagree on that. While I like the idea of being able to select a kit prior to battle I wish those kits were tied to the culture of the city holding the tournament. I think abandoning that will take away some of the cultural diversity of the factions (and there is very little of it as is).
It is possible influence weapon set choices (yes, the AI tries to pick intelligent combinations) by faction which would restore some of that flavor, but I do not want to limit the player's options in the same regard.  This feels like it might cause an advantage to the player though.

Anyways, I don't mean to sound too critical, I'm really excited about this addition.
As long as it is constructive, I welcome everyone's thoughts.  The end result, in my view, is to create something people will look forward to and want enabled in their game.

And as a side note if any 3d assets are ever needed I'm a professional 3d artist so I'll be more than happy to help.
That is something we're definitely looking for.  To be honest one of the flavor improvements I'd love to see would be faction specific tournament apparel, yet I lack that kind of artistic skill myself which is one reason I stick to the resources handy in the native system.
 
And as a side note if any 3d assets are ever needed I'm a professional 3d artist so I'll be more than happy to help.

As Windyplains has already mentioned in his dev diary, we are / soon will begin officially looking for new additions to the team. Stick around, stay tuned and watch the board :wink:
Specifically artists are something we greatly appreciate.
 
Windyplains said:
And as a side note if any 3d assets are ever needed I'm a professional 3d artist so I'll be more than happy to help.
That is something we're definitely looking for.  To be honest one of the flavor improvements I'd love to see would be faction specific tournament apparel, yet I lack that kind of artistic skill myself which is one reason I stick to the resources handy in the native system.
I thought I might add on to this and toss the challenge out for folks if interested.  If you are interested in seeing more than 4 teams possible in a tournament if someone creates the suitable gear (full set for each new "color") and doesn't mind it being made open source I will implement extra teams.

Level Scaling:
I also thought I'd add some more thoughts on level scaling.  I really don't think this is quite the game killer folks might suspect, but here is my solution as it stands.  Level scaling is an available player option, but is disabled by default.  This way folks can have it either way they desire which hopefully addresses concerns. 

Immersion:
Additionally, to increase "immersion" all of your enemies will now have unique names.  No longer will Mercenary Swordsman or Sword Sister attend your tournaments.  Instead you may see names like Sir Nicholas of Praven (if you aren't in Praven that is).  These names are dynamically assigned so they will be quite varied and travelers will only come from nearby cities.
 
Windyplains said:
Level Scaling:
I also thought I'd add some more thoughts on level scaling.  I really don't think this is quite the game killer folks might suspect, but here is my solution as it stands.  Level scaling is an available player option, but is disabled by default.  This way folks can have it either way they desire which hopefully addresses concerns. 

Still, I think creating few (several?) kinds of tournaments is better idea. It would exclude level scaling and introduce progressive reward at the same time. 

What's the difference?
With level scaling you participate in same tournament but with increasing difficulty. It's like AI cheating.
With different kinds of tournaments you can try harder one at the beginning of game. You probably will loose, but when you win it eventually it will give satisfaction. There is no satisfaction with level scaling.
 
Hyde911 said:
Still, I think creating few (several?) kinds of tournaments is better idea. It would exclude level scaling and introduce progressive reward at the same time.
To make sure we're on the same page here, my intention is to add both options.  Alternate tournament venues simply aren't ready yet is all.

With level scaling you participate in same tournament but with increasing difficulty. It's like AI cheating.
I here might be were we differ in view.  I tend see the inability for the AI to gain experience and level up a cheat since it is only an advantage the player enjoys.  I'll toss out two scenarios, one with level scaling & one without.

With level scaling, your AI enemies are roughly equal level to you, but they are not the best at everything or amazing by comparison.  I ensured they are decent at everything, but a specialized character definitely has an edge with the ability to choose equipment.  So at low levels the enemies aren't overpowering, but at high levels they remain more than simply fodder.

Without level scaling, the AI will default to medium level range (this is effectively what we see in native since the same troops are used) which means at low levels they have the advantage while at higher levels you do and significantly so.

Both our views on this I think are fair perspectives which is why I am giving players the ability to simply enable or disable level scaling as they wish.  From a personal standpoint I will probably disable it at lower levels (more challenge) and enable it at higher levels (to maintain challenge).  I'm all about options as long as I know what folks want.  And this is why this is the format I will use for any future Dev Diaries to get as much feedback from players as I can so thanks again for lending your input.  :grin:
 
I thought I might add on to this and toss the challenge out for folks if interested.  If you are interested in seeing more than 4 teams possible in a tournament if someone creates the suitable gear (full set for each new "color") and doesn't mind it being made open source I will implement extra teams.
You mean just recolors of existing gear ? if so, which models (if you knew the model names I probably could prepare them for tomorrow). Also, how many and do you have any colors preference ?
On a side note, is it possible for tournaments in different factions to use different models? (like for example fur coats for the nords etc?)

As for the scaling I think you should do it for now and focus on the whole system of rewards, renown etc. More complex system can wait till after 2.5.
 
wingcutangel said:
You mean just recolors of existing gear ? if so, which models (if you knew the model names I probably could prepare them for tomorrow). Also, how many and do you have any colors preference ?
Basic armor -> arena_tunicR_new
Advanced armor -> arena_armorR_new
Shield -> arena_shield_red
Helm -> tourney_helmR

These are the four color coded pieces.  These are all native textures in the common resource folder.  I believe in their own resource file named tournament or arena gear.  I'd suggest purple, brown and orange as alternate colors unless someone has a better idea.  I think those would look distinctly different enough so as not to confuse.  White exists, but I intend to keep it separate.

On a side note, is it possible for tournaments in different factions to use different models? (like for example fur coats for the nords etc?)
Absolutely possible.  I avoided it when I built TPE because it was meant to fit into many mods.  But as it is primarily being designed around Floris at this time this is doable.  Main requirement would be that I'd need different "team" pieces.  This might end up taking more item spots than desired, but if a few factions shared their armor types (like Swadia & Rhodoks) it would reduce that a bit.  I wouldn't count on it by 2.5's release, but we'll see.

As for the scaling I think you should do it for now and focus on the whole system of rewards, renown etc. More complex system can wait till after 2.5.
Everything described in the diary is already built.  At this point it is chasing any errors and making final improvements during the beta.
 
One of the things that I really liked about the original tournaments was that when you fought in a tournament in a certain city, the assigned weapons reflected the city's culture. For instance, competing in Ichamur would mean that nearly everyone was mounted with either bows or javelins. It made sense to me that each city would have it's own culture and therefore require you to compete in their traditional style.

I know that you mentioned complete freedom to choose your weapons, but I think it might be cool if you only have a set to choose from in some cities (including being mounted as well). Essentially it would mean that along with the "traditional" gear, if you choose to implement it, you would also have "traditional" arms that would link the culture of the city to the tournament. This would also work well with the style of the enhanced arenas because some are better suited to different weapon types and mounted or dismounted combat.

Also, in terms of level scaling and such, I think that it is a great idea. Typically I would fight in the tournaments early in the game just to get a quick cash boost and it was really frustrating to be up against a sword sister that could kill you in about 1 hit. Then as I get into the late game, the tournaments feel like a waste of time, because the cash and the experience are basically nothing.

Keep up the great work!
 
pretender said:
Q) Will the Lords/Kings level up and become more tougher when we level to like 30+ level ?
They do not do this in Native.  This kit will not change that at this time.  More specifically if that does change it will likely be for reasons of improving their performance in the rest of the game.
 
Brambles said:
One of the things that I really liked about the original tournaments was that when you fought in a tournament in a certain city, the assigned weapons reflected the city's culture.

I agree. IMO there is inconsistency in this improvement. It mean to increase difficulty level, but on the other hand it make it easier by allowing to choose weapons. It is tournament after all. Only the best can win in it, no I-don't-like-this-kind-of-weapon whiners.
 
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