"Seoul Train"

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They are emmigrating illegally and ANY country in the world would treat them the same if they were found to be crossing borders illegally

Um, no. Refugee/Asylum seeking status is recognised under International law. While the country is not obliged to accept such people crossing their borders (though technically a refugee must declare their request for asylum in the first neutral country they enter) they are also not obliged to return the refugee's to their native country.

Mind you, you have to wonder at the intelligence of those who flee North Korea for China. It's not like China's record on human rights and similar is any better. Considering theres a fair sized belt of neutral, UN owned land between North & South Korea, you'd think it would make a far easier and safer option.
 
Almost none of them have a legitimate asylum case. For asylum you have to be in danger BEFORE you leave and even then you must be in danger for some other reason than  you broke a law. Regardless, China sends them back as they are fully right (legally) to do and they are punished(or not, no one seems to care enough to find out) for breaking the law. That not to mention that China doesn't always send them back to North Korea but as was stated sends some (those it thinks have a proper right to asylum) to South Korea.

The people sneaking in to China are almost all doing it for the exact same reason people sneak from Mexico to the US or from Turkey to Germany or whatever. They're poor and they think that they won't be poor in another country. The reason they're going to China isn't because it has a better human rights record but because China (and Manchuria more than other parts) is much richer than North Korea. They are not political asylum seekers. They are immigrant workers. There aren't many people in North Korea that even care about their government. All they care about are their empty stomachs. Not very nobel of course but still a very good reason.

Of course if you mean to say that China and North Korea are morally wrong for obstructing worker migration and that people should be free to move to another country if they feel like it then you are denouncing all governments on the planet right now that do not have completely open borders. Personally I'd agree with you but I don't think many other people actually hold that opinion.
 
^ That would be feasible if it were not for the thousands of soldiers guarding the relatively smaller border between the North and the South.
No more difficult than bypassing the border security on the ports. Hell, what's to stop them simply sailing out into international waters, then turning South and docking at South Korea? Worked for the Germans trying to get over the wall.

There's also the advantage that once they actually enter the DMZ they fall under UN juridstiction, which is a much better bet for sucsessful asylum than picking a random country.

Almost none of them have a legitimate asylum case. For asylum you have to be in danger BEFORE you leave and even then you must be in danger for some other reason than  you broke a law.
International law states there merely needs to be a reasonable chance that you face torture or death by returning to your home country. It doesn't matter if you broke a law or whether you were in danger prior to leaving. It is up to the country hosting the asylum seeker to judge the merits of the claim, and it is therefore up to the host country to decide if illegal activity or prior risk should be factored into the case. Technically a US citizen facing the death sentence can claim to be an asylum seeker, it would depend upon the country they chose to claim in whether or not to deport him to stand trial. Cuba probably wouldn't, the UK would. It's also up to the host country what to do with failed Asylum applications. You can return to country of origin, or you could (for example) take the French method of simply housing them in a camp near the border and hoping they take the hint.
It's actually a problem for a different reason - if an asylum seeker is turned down by one country, the first safe port rule no longer applies and they are then free to travel to any other country and submit a new claim. This has led (especially in Africa) to something of a shadow industry whereby Asylum applicants are transported to a country which has already agreed to reject their application, simply so the refugees can then travel to their country of choice to put in a new claim.
Of course if you mean to say that China and North Korea are morally wrong for obstructing worker migration and that people should be free to move to another country if they feel like it then you are denouncing all governments on the planet right now that do not have completely open borders. Personally I'd agree with you but I don't think many other people actually hold that opinion.
I denounce all government as being a bad idea anyway :wink: Morally of course I don't have an opinion - China can feel free to round them up and use them as live target practice if it wants, makes no difference to me.
 
Archonsod said:
^ That would be feasible if it were not for the thousands of soldiers guarding the relatively smaller border between the North and the South.
No more difficult than bypassing the border security on the ports. Hell, what's to stop them simply sailing out into international waters, then turning South and docking at South Korea? Worked for the Germans trying to get over the wall.

There's also the advantage that once they actually enter the DMZ they fall under UN juridstiction, which is a much better bet for sucsessful asylum than picking a random country.

There's also an advantage in sneaking into a country where the officials won't shoot you on sight. IIRC, I think N. Korean soldiers are ordered/are encouraged to shoot any refugees fleeing the countries. On top of that, the border is also, again, much more heavily guarded.

I also think that South Korean soldiers are told not to let in refugees (though I could be horribly wrong on this one) since such acts tend to tick of Jong Il.
 
Let's discuss something that North Korea definately did do and that even it admits was naughty: http://www.guardian.co.uk/japan/story/0,7369,794098,00.html
 
^ On that note, I've heard that Jong Il had a tendency to kidnap S. Korean actors, have them participate in a movie filmed by the Dictator himself, and then let them go back home afterwards.
 
He did that once, yes. Damn good movie too. Should have won an oscar if the oscars weren't so racist. At least they let black people win them sometimes now.
 
That puzzles me. What is the gain of kidnapping an average citizen with the risk of losing the kidnapping frogmen who are trained soldiers into an already poor and ****ty country with no need of citizens?

Or did the NK do it intentionally to smear the name of communism,or did it just do it out of spite,or did it do it to scare the world? I just don't have the slightest ****ing clue.
 
They did it because Kim Jong Il is one power-crazy SOB. I mean this is a dictatorship in which his only qualification for office was being his father's son and being ruthless enough to kill whoever challenges him. Kim Jong Il is cartoonish supervillainy evil, only his plans aren't for world domination, they're to prop up his corrupt and ineffective regime in order to ensure his own survival.
 
Mage246 said:
They did it because Kim Jong Il is one power-crazy SOB. I mean this is a dictatorship in which his only qualification for office was being his father's son and being ruthless enough to kill whoever challenges him. Kim Jong Il is cartoonish supervillainy evil, only his plans aren't for world domination, they're to prop up his corrupt and ineffective regime in order to ensure his own survival.

You didn't answer. What's the gain about kidnapping an average citizen? I doubt even Kim Jong il saw her or wanted her for anything.
 
Maybe he did it just to prove to himself that he could. Also this guy is obsessed with film-making, and since he can't actually get any decent actors to come be in one of his films (or apparently train any decent actors of his own...) he resorts to kidnapping them. This is a guy who is used to getting basically get whatever he wants in the world, and if he can't get something legally he tries to do it illegally. He lives in a fantasy land where people do whatever he tells them to, don't expect him to act in a way that you or I would perceive to be rational. As for losing the men who he sent as kidnappers: I'm sure he couldn't care less about them, as long as he gets what he wants he's happy.
 
Well, then someone has to calm this little fella down. If living in opulence doesn't satisfy him, something else may be wrong. People don't turn mad or evil without reason. 
 
Jaghatai Khan said:
Well, then someone has to calm this little fella down. If living in opulence doesn't satisfy him, something else may be wrong. People don't turn mad or evil without reason. 

Well take a look at it from what it must be like to be him: how could you stay sane/moral and be the dictator of a country like North Korea? Keep in mind that your objective is also to stay alive, so that means paranoia and no attempts at major reform.
 
Jaghatai Khan said:
Well, then someone has to calm this little fella down. If living in opulence doesn't satisfy him, something else may be wrong. People don't turn mad or evil without reason. 

Most people who know Jong Il well enough tend to regard him as a bit crazy and irrational, hence his odd tendencies.
 
Colt said:
Look, North Korea is a ****ty place with a ****ty government but just because something's ****ty doesn't mean you have to make up more **** about it. The existing ****, accompanied with an honest and solid argument should be all you need to illustrate why you dislike it.

Well, I agree,but still I'm sure as hell that those people are executed. Especially with Kim Jong Il around.
 
You know, with a leader like Kim Jong-Ill who's crazy he abducted those people just so he could force them to reproduce to satiate his need to eat Japanese babies for breakfast every morning.

BS propoganda. Try something that's not just poisoning the well.

They were abducted, taken to North Korea, and they were given jobs as language instructors for the intellegence agency. Some of them still work as language instructors today, married with kids living in North Korea. Actually, they weren't all random. Many were language students and some of them were replaced by North Korean spies using their identity. Of course you would know all of this if you had read the article.
 
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