Compressed and compiled balance issues

This thread is dedicated to keeping track of some of the problems we have noticed in the game. It will be updated from time to time so that this first post may contain all which seems to need any changes.


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Knowing how dedicated and thorough Moeckerkalfie is, it seems we have a perfectly balanced game! Huzzah, absolutely no issues!
Thanks bud.

Lots of this will take 3 weeks until it will be fixed, cause Davee is on vacation now.

A sly move, Harkon, you were fast!

And Rathos: That is the reason for this thread in the first place, its not supposed to be a complaint, but rather the essence of the suggestion and meadhall threads all compiled in one thread, so you and Davee won't have to read the entire forum once the last steps are taken to create 0.82.

" Two Handes Axes :

Without questions these are the best weapons in the game. They are not too expensive while the wearer can kill most opponents with one strike. They are at least as fast as most one handed weapons but with higher reach. The fact that a hit of the hilt can kill as well gives them an advantage in virtually all situations of melee. "

I am still of the opinion that any decent player can easily stand up to a 2 handed axeman with any sword or 1 handed axe with decent enough reach. The speed is so terrible that you should be able to block all attacks, unless he does a shady feint.

HarkonHakoon said:

" Two Handes Axes :

Without questions these are the best weapons in the game. They are not too expensive while the wearer can kill most opponents with one strike. They are at least as fast as most one handed weapons but with higher reach. The fact that a hit of the hilt can kill as well gives them an advantage in virtually all situations of melee. "

I am still of the opinion that any decent player can easily stand up to a 2 handed axeman with any sword or 1 handed axe with decent enough reach. The speed is so terrible that you should be able to block all attacks, unless he does a shady feint.

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For duels you are right, but with multiple people, especially with a berserker abusing his athletics skill, its just incredibly difficult to stand up to them. Getting close is no use either with the lethal hilt hits, and one swing getting through will most likely kill an unaware opponent of the axeman.

Moecky is right, the Two-handed axes are too hard to face. I use a lot of lshort weapon to face the footmen with shield, but With a berserker I have only luck on my side. They should be more slowly.

One other thing I have think about it, is the Heavy Armor. It didn't give enough protection for its cost, so I've think: If we made the heavy armor more(and I mean MORE) protective and more expansive(cause It will be too easily to get), it should works IMHO.

The two-handed axes are fine - if the speed is any lower, then an enemy will be able to get an attack in before you can once you block. Then you will get one swing and need to block desperately, because all they need to do is spam and there's nothing you can do about it. That's why the speed was upped in the first place.

"But good players can handle it" is absolutely no way to balance a game. Give every weapon purpose, give every weapon complementarity. Any one weapon that is clearly superior can and WILL be abused, and more often than not by the seriously good players who, too often, care for little more than topping the scoreboard. The two handed axes are unbalanced. Combined with the speed of the berserker, one can literally backpedal the entire map slashing madly -- endlessly out of range of most but the lightest of attackers.

If anything, a two handed axe was likely a SPECIALIST weapon, one DIFFICULT to master, but highly efficient when handled correctly. The simply fact that on equal skill level the two hander will, in nearly every circumstance win is proof enough. I just wished the developers actually played the game enough to realise it.

Also, the one handed axe you're referring to is the War Axe with I believe 72 reach, and I still don't quite know what to think of it. Given the choice, I'll never use anything else.

Azrooh said:

The two-handed axes are fine - if the speed is any lower, then an enemy will be able to get an attack in before you can once you block. Then you will get one swing and need to block desperately, because all they need to do is spam and there's nothing you can do about it. That's why the speed was upped in the first place.

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Personally I wouldn't mind them being that way. You have a long stick with a relatively heavy thing on top. Once you swing it you can hit hard, but if you miss you're basically ****ed. At least that's how I imagine them to be, I never handled one myself, so if there is someone who does please correct me if I'm wrong!
Also they can easily have lower speed. Take a look at the heaftmace, it is slower then all the axes and you can still block with it. It's just utter useless because it does almost no damage AND is this slow. It might be a nice waepon if they just made it faster, cause I can't see how that thing would be slower then longaxes...

In mah gigantic essay, 904 words at the moment I encroach on this and a tonne of topics. Expect it tomorrow! This "report" is also only a tiny bit of what I have been working on.

The large axes -are- a problem. Anytime I can turn up with a weapon & without breaking a sweat go 5-0 shows there is a clear advantage in such a weapon. I'm not a great player so when I can mow down several players with a Long Hedsmark consistantly, there is something wrong.

We were discussing axes earlier this evening and I think that 2H axes should be really slow, as in reality it does take a long time to swing that 5' haft all the way at your target - I've been attacked by Dane Axes multiple times at re-enactment - but to offset the slow speed any blocks against the attack should stun the person defending against the 2H axe by at least a second. At least. The impact from these weapons is colossal and whilst I only went up against blows that had their power pulled they still hit hard.
I believe that such an adjustment will keep them useful (such as battering through shield walls, stunning those behind the shields with the brute power) whilst tearing up shields & armour with ease but being really hard to swing.

But at the moment they do need something done to them.

Also One Handed War Axe needs altering. You don't see other axes used now except the Trondr or someone going for another axe just for the hell of it (I personally love the Vikingr One Handed Dane Axe) or because they can't get that axe for their class. It's got a good reach, fast as a sword, excellent damage. They're, unfortunately, a bit of a blight on the Vikingr landscape in my eyes.

If you guys say so... Just no need to make the 2 handed axes useless.

Just said that because I was yet to lose a 1vs1 with just a sword or the war axe against a 2 handed axe. And of course it sweeps mobs, it's the main point of it.

and here I was thinking that the point of this mod was realism, Harkon i dare you to try swinging an axe the same size as you and then recoverign and swingign again before a sword weilder can even move.

Actually a nice counter to a really slow swing speed (I'm thinking in the 50s/60s here) would be to give it 'Crush through Blocks', or whatever the trait is called, due to the momentum. Just another thought - 1sec stun to anyone who blocks + crush through blocks. Makes them a nice utility weapon as well as a shield eating weapon.

...admittedly my preferred way of dealing with Dane Axe wielders at re-enactment was to physically launch myself at them & cling physically to them whilst I pummelled them with my saex until they went down. But that can't be reflected in the M&B mechanics, unfortunately

Hmm I'm not sure about the crush through blocks, but maybe. What would help though is making them heavier, so they can stun you more often. Already happens sometimes right now, but rarely.
And is it right that heavier weapons are also automatically slower in warband?

In discussions with Rathos regarding an overhaul of item balancing. Keep the lists and suggestions coming...

Shall finish up the essay. But I still have a notepad of proposed ideas on weapon tiers etc and a basic idea of stats and so on. Sadly alot of my ideas need some modelling, but they could be put in place with placeholders as it stands. I'm getting a tad more free time now the sister-in-law is out of Hospital so shall get to work for you chaps. Every little helps.

reignlief said:

and here I was thinking that the point of this mod was realism, Harkon i dare you to try swinging an axe the same size as you and then recoverign and swingign again before a sword weilder can even move.

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The point of this mod is to focus on realism regarding the era, yes. But as with anything, making a game super realistic is never fun; I don't want the 2 handed axe to be useless. Gameplay is always valued BEFORE realism.
Though, I like Leofwine's suggestion of making it crush through blocks if it really is going to be made that slow. Just not sure what the rest of my clan would say, as we frown up upon the lolhammers of Native multiplayer.

Yet the hedmarks in a zerks hands is the lolsword of Vikingr.

Also on realism, we're not asking for super realism but when you talk about fun, a weapon like that is only fun for the user. The true value of gameplay in a multiplayer sense is balance, teamwork and player skill. A truly skilled player would equip himself with the tools for a job and use them to their advantage, a zerker with a slower dane axe would need to take a secondary weapon, he would use his axe to soften shields and target unexpecting victims, or use the axe in a melee and rely upon his skill with that nerfed weapon. If his skill with that axe in a melee is not up to par he will die, simple as, or he could use his speed and a 1h and best the opponent that way, having to get in close and attack his victims, add the idea that Beserkers should have to sacrifice speed for protection with tweaked Beserker armour stats and this specialist class would need to be used by a specialist player. Secondly this using of the axe to take out shields when employed with allies is touching on realism. It's known that Huscarls would fight in pairs espeically against cavalry, one employing his shield and sword/spear to take the horsemans attacks and the axe wielder would attempt to take out the horse. It is thus my belief that simple tweaks like these encourage more teamplay and shieldwalling and encompasses what I believe Vikingr is all about.

Ps. Slowly but surely half of my bloody report will come out in individual posts.