Alliances, trade agreements, etc.

Hi, im playing floris modpack expanded, which includes diplomacy, but i have never been able to find the option for this feature:

Form an alliance, conclude a defensive pact, sign a trade agreement or conclude a non-aggression treaty with another faction.

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that line is copied directly from the "as king" feature list.

how does one go about making alliances?
i have a few games going where i have gotten my relation up to 100 with a few factions in an attempt to ally with them, but to no avail. and then the most retarded thing ever happens - they are allied to another faction who declares war on me, thus the faction i had 100 relation with declares war on me and my relation sets to -40....even after getting to a truce with them my relation is reset to 0, rather than back to 100 or at least some portion of 100 (perhaps 60 would be nice, as -40 relation in war hits the 100 previous relation).

that alone is quite ruining to my games so far regarding the diplo mod.  any info on this or tips to avoid it?
and how do i make alliances?
all i can ever do with my staff is send gifts or conclude non-aggression treaty, but never seen ability to make alliance/trade pact/defensive pact.
and sarranid tends to ALWAYS ally themselves with at least 1, but usually 2, other factions.  and they always renew the alliance before the defensive pact is over, so it makes it impossible to try and be friends with sarranid and also conquer or go to war with any of their "friends".
this is the other element of diplo mod that eventually ruins games.

edit: well i found this in FAQ:

    Q: Why can't I request a trade or higher pact with a faction?
    A:  Before you can negotiate a trade or higher pact you have to be recognized as king by the other faction.

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however, i have never once been recognized as king.  not with over 200 honor, 2k+ renown, 99 RtR, and holding half the map (not including the factions original cities).  oh add on top of that a 60+ relationship personally with the faction king.  ive tried asking to be recognized many times over with many different factions and have not once gotten a positive reply in any of my games.

so i guess that hurdle is still in the way for making political agreements.  anything i might be doing wrong or knowledge regarding this? is it bugged?

Sigh... Yet another exact same question i shall have to answer in this board.

The reason why Kings do not recognize you is cause they never had a reason to despite your qualifications.

Try asking again when you are at war with a common enemy.

E.g. You wanna be buddies with Swadia and Swadia is at war with Rhodoks. Be an enemy of Rhodok and then ask King Harlaus about the recognition.

if thats the way its supposed to work, then by all measures of what "diplomacy" means, and is meant to do, it fails pretty miserably.  but then again almost every aspect of AI interaction in this game fails miserably so ill take that as a yes - WAI (working as intended)

sorry to make you answer *again*, i did search for it, but didnt find the answer.
and, i have in fact been at war with a common enemy but still dont get recognized, so its obviously not 100% either.
will keep trying though, thanks.

It isn't 100%. Good relations with the king and faction also helps. But a common enemy gives by far the best results. Having a moderate kingdom size without being too big or too tiny can also help.

effemb said:

if thats the way its supposed to work, then by all measures of what "diplomacy" means, and is meant to do, it fails pretty miserably.

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The recognizing as King part is actually Native, not a Diplomacy feature. Diplomacy opens up treaties after you have been recognized. Even so, it doesn't fail if you think about it. You are a pretender, other Kings will only recognize you if by doing so they can gain a significant ally against their enemies.

effemb said:

if thats the way its supposed to work, then by all measures of what "diplomacy" means, and is meant to do, it fails pretty miserably.  but then again almost every aspect of AI interaction in this game fails miserably so ill take that as a yes - WAI (working as intended)

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As mentioned, recognition hasn't been changed from Native, but if you have ideas about when you think it makes sense for rival kings to officially acknowledge the legitimacy of your state I'd be interested to hear them.

The amount of lands and lords you have should influence it significantly I think. It doesn't make sense for a King to recognize you if you only have a few fiefs, and neither does denying your claim if you own half of Calradia. Or in short, "military power" should affect it.

Captain_Octavius said:

The amount of lands and lords you have should influence it significantly I think. It doesn't make sense for a King to recognize you if you only have a few fiefs, and neither does denying your claim if you own half of Calradia. Or in short, "military power" should affect it.

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I think that makes sense.

There might be room for countries to be exceptions -- I think it could make sense for a king to officially recognize you even if your domain is piddling, to make you more of a thorn in the side of one of his rivals, and it could also make sense to refuse official recognition in some cases despite the size of the player's kingdom (a real-life example of that I'd point to is the current situation with Taiwan and China, which has some parallels to an incomplete takeover of a kingdom in M&B)  -- but I think the game would be better if it worked more like you're describing.

I'll work on this.  Also, someone in the Suggestions thread mentioned the idea of demanding official recognition as a condition for peace.  I thought that was a good idea, so I'll try to add that as well while I'm at it.

This change has been added to the 2011-06-12 Diplomacy 3.3.2+ update, although not the ability to ask for official recognition as part of your peace demands.