[REL-minimod]Reasonable Troop Tree (RTT) v1.53 - (Floris Expanded 2.4/2.41a)

effemb · May 5, 2011

28/November/2012
WOW~~~~
So its been over a year since this got updated.
Havent played MnB for awhile now, and also the updates of floris mod made me take a bit of time to sit back and wait...
Tired of games getting wiped. Really happy with the latest 2.54 update of floris, and so I'm remaking this troop tree for it.
That is to say - really happy with 2.54 floris except that the troop trees still suck

So unfortunately this (or another) better troop tree mod is still "needed" to make the game as good as it should be.
So - just for a taster, since many of you will probably see this for the first time. Right now only NORDS ARE DONE - also, the upgrade trees are also done - although I couldnt yet figure out how to link the individual presentations for each troop. So if anyone knows how to edit module_presentations.py to allow clicking on the new troops in the troop tree in order to show their equipment/stats, please let me know.

DOWNLOAD:
http://mountandblade.nexusmods.com/mods/3862
v2.0 (NORDS)

http://www.mediafire.com/?xi17ck2jukq37rb
http://www.filedropper.com/floris241a-rtt153
v1.53

UPDATED-->PLEASE NOTE!
I have made some module.ini edits in my game when using this mod. I do not test it with the natural version so if there is imbalance in gameplay, it might be due to this. Edits are minimal, but I would reccommend you edit your module.ini file in the floris mod folder to match these settings, or at least get somewhere closer to them.

regulars_xp_multiplier = 3.5; #if you want to see more tier6/7 troops you can put this higher, or vice versa

damage_interrupt_attack_threshold = 10.0

armor_soak_factor_against_cut = 0.85
armor_soak_factor_against_pierce = 0.75
armor_soak_factor_against_blunt = 0.65

armor_reduction_factor_against_cut = 1.0
armor_reduction_factor_against_pierce = 0.65
armor_reduction_factor_against_blunt = 0.75

horse_charge_damage_multiplier = 0.35
couched_lance_damage_multiplier = 0.4
fall_damage_multiplier = 0.5

Lets get straight to the point then.

The goal of this minimod is:
[list type=decimal]
[*]Cut down on the huge troop tree that is Floris Expanded...its too much. This tree has 4 unit types per faction. Nords have 3. Sarranid have 5.
[*]Rework some of the naming conventions so names in the same chain are similar, easier to keep track of.
[*]Keep 2 Tier-7 units per faction as the end-all "elite" units. Very hard to train them up, but very survivable once they are finally T7.
[*]Have equally good "elite" weapons, armor, and horses for those Tier7 (and Tier6) troops, special to each faction to make them look distinct.
[*]Keep true to the faction's actual strengths and flavour. I didnt like how some of the tree was throwing factions off track from their native intention (I want to play floris as a native-styled improvement mod, not a conversion, as I play other mods for that). Also, expand on the original style and really push each faction into its own niche.
[*]Keep it Floris save-game compatible! Yes, it is. No troops added or removed from the troops file. So you can use games from floris or any other compatible tree, and if you dont like RTT you can simply uninstall it and use your savegames back in those other trees as well.
[*]I want a troop tree where I can play a game only as 1 faction type; still do as well as using any other faction; and still be competitive against mixed-faction armies. That means, every faction has to have a relatively good, or at least decent, way of handling any other type of troop, while having a unique style of warfare for each faction.
[*]Troop tree was horribly flawed with melee weapons completely missing from some troops, the weapon skills totally wrong for the troop types, and various other errors which have been fixed. Seriously, not sure who made this troop tree, but roughly HALF of the units had weapons of one type, and skillsets for another type. These fixes also include item edits and re-equipping of nearly the entire troop tree to better reflect their roles, and to make them LOOK GOOD!
[/list]

So, thats the goal. Here is the result.

First of all, as I said, all the troops are in there from Floris expanded 2.41a - the troops marked by "xx" in the tree-view pictures (below) are disabled and taken out of the game, but they are still in the troops file. This means it is fully save game compatible but you will have to start a new game to see all changes. Current troops marked with "xx" can upgrade to a non-xx troop at all stages, so if using with an older save game, dont worry, your obsolete troops will upgrade to something in the actual RTT-tree.

Secondly, troop identifiers have been expanded a bit.
I = Infantry
A = Ranged (Archer/Thrower)
C = Cavalry
H = Ranged Horse (Archer/Thrower)
S/s = Spear/Pike Infantry
b = Blunt weapon troop (where there is multiple types of that troop-type in the tree)
L = Light Cavalry or Lancer Cavalry (where there are multiple cavalry in the tree)

Also, I've mixed the identifiers where appropriate.
For example IA = Infantry Archer, which is a hybrid. Isa = Infantry that is also a light spearman, light archer. It makes sense when you see it.
A lower case letter means it is a half-ranked ability (lower skill in that weapon type, and lower pstrike/pdraw if applicable to that weapon type). Examples: An Ia is primarily Infantry, and secondarily archer. An IS is a pure spear infantry. An IA is equally infantry and archer. Exception to this is "b" which simply signifies that the troop uses blunt weapons.

Third...here are the troop trees, with explanations by faction below:

2276397165544AD823BEB918C892DC7B5FBA114B

40A3FC118990C222C4C24D1DF94E732FC2A80E8D

33B21784CC4BBB010F9EF4D9F475DC991EB30234

F8467C1FFC62A996F83B075E7954682C50A7DC59

2877E568EE79E9503571AD6EC31D17259E6821C4

B9548034108850163CD76E18758D162E45962B9B

42540EDBC4CD5BFE6B2A3D6858B1B20100BA0BFF

137CAAECDF9A056FDD0A4A33B001196DFAD0C24C

[/quote]
link to steam screenshot library if that doesnt work:
http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198038515973/screenshot/594684767894233121?tab=public

NEW! -->Standardized Unit Stats/Skills/Tiered Equipment Sets:

--make each faction 3 tiers/sets of elite armor, tier5, tier6, tier7
for units that max at tier6, uses a mix-match of tier6/tier7 equipment.
units that max at tier7 follow the equipment sets normally.
missile units use one tier lower armor (ie: A7 unit uses tier6 armor set, A6 maxed missile unit uses mix-match of tier5/tier6).
tier6 set:
gloves 8 (1.0), helm 55 (1.0), armor 55/18 (18.0), boots 36 (1.0), shield 600/20/70/90 (2.0), horse 60/50/50/20/250
tier7 set:
gloves 10 (1.0), helm 60 (1.0), armor 60/20 (19.0), boots 40 (1.0), shield 700/25/80/100 (2.0), horse 70/50/50/30/350
--make each faction tier5, tier6 and tier7 weapon sets.
tier7 baseline:
2h chop: 55dmg, 140 range, 95 speed, shieldbreak if axe (-20 range)
2h blunt: 50dmg, 125 range, 85 speed, bash-thru
lance: dark jousting lance, colored jousting lance (30p/320range)
spear(1h): 40dmg, 160 range, 100 speed, shieldbreak
spear(2h): 45dmg, 220 range, 95 speed, shieldbreak, no horseback
1h chop: 45dmg, 110 range, 105 speed, shieldbreak if axe (-20 range)
1h blunt: 40dmg, 100 range, 100 speed, bash-thru

skills baseline:
tier5: 5 / 3 / 2
tier6: 6 / 4 / 3
tier7: 8 / 6 / 4
stats baseline:
tier6: str10, agi10, int9, cha9
tier7: str14, agi12, int9, cha9
wpn skills baseline: (+10 for each level over 34 tier6, over level 40 tier7)
tier6: primary 260 / secondary 200
tier7: primary 310 / secondary 250
level baseline:
tier6: level 36, 34... (primary, others)
tier7: level 42, 40... (primary, others)

Explanations of troop-tree:
Swadia
NEW! -->Swadian Faction Bonuses:

*Swadians get +2 to +4 on all faction-specific elite armor sets. This includes shields. Swadian Armor is the best protection and the price has been drastically increased for the player wanting to buy it. This is due to Swadia being the remnants of the old Empire, by which they obtained the most effective means of forging armors. Game lore also states many times that Swadian blacksmiths are the most famous in the land. Now they actually are.
*Swadian units get +20 weapon skills, +1 shield skill.
*Swadian horses get +10 armor, +20 charge

Swadians are most famous for their knights.
Swadians are secondly most famous for longbowmen.
1a and 1b Swadian Guards - A light infantry halbredman with bow sidearm. Archery is roughly equal to A5 archer unit. Shock Infantry value roughly equal to I5 or C5 unit. (hybrid, good garrison troop)
2Swadian Knights T7 - The backbone of any Swadian army. Dont be afraid to dismount them when needed to fight on foot. Their charge power is the strongest of any cavalry. On foot, they are walking tanks.
3Swadian Shock Infantry - Braveheart, anyone?
4Swadian Archers T7 - longbowmen
Swadian Info:

Swadians are relatively versatile, but rely on a backbone of heavy knights and longbow archers. Its a mix of heavy offense and heavy defense, with medium and mixed troops in between. The Halbred/light archer guard also makes a very good and relatively easy to train garrison unit. You can practically fill up any castle/town with 50% of these and 50% of archers and you have a very solid defense at relatively low cost. They can help stop cavalry charges in the field, too, but arent nearly as good as rhodok or nord spears.

Khergit
NEW! -->Khergit Faction Bonuses:

*all units: +1 pdraw, +2 riding, +2 horse archery, -1 athletics, +40 archery
*armor: -2 armor/-4 armor weight
*horses: +10 manuever/+10 speed/+100 HP (-10 armor for the lancers and horse archers), cant be "lamed"

Khergits are most famous for their horse ability
Khergits are second most famous for their ability with the bow
1Khergit Heavy Cavalry. T7 - Heavy Shock Cavalry. Heavily armored, Slow moving, low charge damage :: 2h-sword + bow (half skill).
2Khergit Lancers. - Fast moving, medium armored, heavy charge damage :: lance, saber, shield
3Khergit Dismounted Guards. - Foot troops with the racial khergit polearms. Bow side-arm (half skill)
4Khergit Horse Archers T7 - Heavy horse archers, well armored, fast moving :: saber, shield, bow
Khergit Info:

Khergits are kings in wide open field battles. Nothing will ever change that. Given the space to move freely, they can use your weakness against you as they either skirmish you from long range with heavy horse archers, or continually pummel you with charges or shock mounted troops. Their ability on foot is one of the worste of any faction, however, and so when they cant use their horses to the advantage, for example in siege offensives, they are quite at a disadvantage. Defending castles however they do relatively well considering that all khergits learn to use a bow, and they do have one quite defensively strong infantry unit able to hold off a melee or cavalry charge at least for awhile (long enough for the mounted troops to do their damage, hopefully).

Vaegir
NEW! -->Vaegir Faction Bonuses:

+1 pstrike, +1 pdraw, +1 ironflesh, +1 level, -2 armor weight

Vaegir are most famous for their elite archers
Vaegir are second most famous for shock cavalry
1Vaegir Shock Cavalry. T7
2Vaegir Heavy Horse Archers
3Vaegir Heavy Archers T7
4Vaegir Shock Infantry
Vaegir Info:

Vaegir are lords of the bow, with unequalled ability to lay down a fierce barrage. They also have very strong shock cavalry who can still fight well on foot. They also have great shock troops though not as powerful as nord counterparts, they are close. Last, they also have a good skirmish ability with their horse archers. All vaegir troops are relatively well armored, so are formidable alone on that end. They do not however have any pure defensive unit or ability to hold off a powerful offensive charge, by the likes of swadian knights, nords, etc. Vaegir must use their bows, skirmishers, and their own cavalry to try and fend off serious offensive charges. However, they are an extremely durable troop tree that is very offensively minded, with the best long range archery ability, rivalling only with rhodok's and khergits for the hardest hitting long range offensive or defensive ability.
Note that the C5 Vaegir Druzhinnik (upgrade from I4 unit) is marked with one "x". It is left so because it is still a viable side option if you want to make a blunt-force army for capturing enemies. The C5 Druzhinnik has not been touched other than to fix skills, and the C6 Druzhinnik has only been touched up minorly, as it was already wearing parts of the faction armor set. It upgrades to the C7 unit so if you want a blunt-force army to chase down and capture units, the I4-I6 and C5-C6 units here would be perfect.

Nords
NEW! -->Nord Faction Bonuses:

*Nords get +1 ironflesh, +1 athletics, +1 pstrike, +1 throwing
*Nord Tier6 units get +1 skills, +1 stats, +1 level, +20 weapons
*Nord Tier7 units get +1 skills, +3 stats, +1 level, +40 weapons

Nords are most famous for heavy shock infantry
Nords are second most famous for versatile foot troops and skirmishers
1Nord Heavy Spearmen. T7 - Anti-Cavalry defensive infantry as well as skirmisher (throwing spears).
2Nord Shock Infantry. T7 - Strongest shock troop in the game with heavy axes that break shields.
3Nord Heavy Archer Infantry. T7 - Throwing axe skirmishers, and heavy defensive shield+axe infantry.
Nord Info

As nords only have 3 chains, all 3 become elite tier7. It suits their role in my oppinion, as they are limited only to foot, and with very limited range ability, but are the toughest troops available if they can make it into skirmish and melee range.
Nords are fast moving foot troops, who are unmatched in the melee fight. If you havent been able to deal hard damage to them before they get into melee range, then you better run. Nords also have a very impressive skirmish ability second only to sarranids, so they still pack a punch at short range, though they completely lack ability to deal long range damage. This is perhaps a shortfall that will need to be fixed, but even giving them mediocre archers imo would simply detract from their core units. All 3 chains are able to upgrade to tier7, and you can of course still build the mediocre archers labeled with double X's (XX), though I feel that the best nord army is one that uses guerilla tactics and tends to spread into 2 or 3 groups, cornering the enemy into a skirmish, and then melee charge from multiple sides where they cant escape, and have no hope of defending against nordic axes. Their spearmen are able to deal with cavalry charges very easily. The only possible loose end for nords would be something like khergit or sarranid horse skirmishers that are able to stay out of short range while shooting them at long range. This, however, seems to be only a problem of chosing the best ground to fight on, and I think that this itself is the single biggest problem that nords SHOULD have to face, anyway. The nord defensive shield+skirmish throwing axe unit however, is usually able to deal with any long range threats rather efficiently.

Rhodoks
NEW! -->Rhodok Faction Bonuses:

*all units: +1 ironflesh, +1 athletics, +1 shield, -1 pstrike, +40 polearm, +40 crossbow
*armor: +2/+4 armor, +2 armor weight
*cavalry limited to tier5 light lancer (do not. i repeat do not, charge the enemy with them. they will die. quickly.) they are for chasing down fleeing enemies or flanking.

Rhodok are best known for their pikemen
Rhodok are also best known for their crossbows
1Rhodok Defensive Legionaires T7 - Tower shields+shortsword+javelins. Form these into shield wall and you have a mobile castle fortress to hide behind. Roman style testudo legionairies that can throw javelins into melee before charging.
2Rhodok Crossbows T7 - Heavy Artillery...
3Rhodok Light Lancers Rhodoks dont have much horse ability, but throw a guy on a horse with a lance, staff, and an xbow, and you get a useful flanker and unit to chase down and finish off fleeing foes.
4Rhodok Spear Infantry. Pikemen. The best.
Rhodok Info:

Rhodok are kings of defense and entrenchment. Taking a castle from rhodok with heavy infantry and pikemen on the walls with crossbows shooting down at you is the hardest offensive you will ever have to take. Rhodok pikes stop swadian knights charging in their tracks. Rhodok xbows are heavy artillery like none other. However, as rhodok is very defensive, they are not very offensive and have limited offensive ability. The best offense is a good defense in their case.

Sarranid
NEW! -->Sarranid Faction Bonuses:

*all units: +1 pthrow, +1 ironflesh, +1 shield, +1 athletics, +40 throwing
*armor: -4/-1 armor weight
*cavalry horse: +10 armor/+10 charge/-5 manuever
*skirmisher horse: -10 charge/+5 manuever

Sarranid are best known for throwing/skirmishing
Sarranid are second best known for heavy horse
1Sarranid Guards. Defensive shield+sword unit. Makes use of throwing darts.
2Sarranid Heavy Cavalry. T7 - Cataphracts, heavily armored charge, followed by heavy shock infantry melee.
3Sarranid Skirmishers. T7 - Here come the best spear throwers in the game. Shield+lower level scimitar for melee defense.
4Sarranid Horse Skirmishers. T7 - Spear throwers on horseback, with light melee ability.
5Sarranid Shock Troops. A heavily offensive minded unit. Uses glaives (polearms) and xbows, fragile but dangerous.
Saranid Info:

Sarranid also has 3 tier7, though its units are not as focused as others. Sarranid's main advantage is the versatility of its troops. Also, it is limited at range. Its IA - infantry xbows - are only hybrid and not to be relied on as pure artillery. They are good mostly for adding a little bit of ranged fire before going into melee. Sarranid has the best abilities with throwing spear, and has recieved a new throwing spear for its top tiered skirmishers that has "damage to shields" which allows it to deal more damage as troops get within range of throwing weapons (since range is much more limited and dealing heavy damage quickly as the enemy advances into melee range is the only chance sarranids get for dealing ranged damage before the melee fight). Sarranid have limited defensive capability with their defensive infantry, so must use skirmishing and hit-and-run tactics to their best advantage.

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Changelog:
14/October/2011
Wow...well I havent been playing MnB for past 2 months or so...but today happens to be 5 months exactly since RTT was first released, and I just looked at download page, and am quite surprised. Hasnt been much activity on the thread and yet its gotten a huge amount of downloads.

Think I might have to make this for version 2.5, as the alternative trees in the beta so far dont seem to be all that great.
And btw, dont use this tree with warband 1.143 patch. In fact, I dont know any reason to be using 1.143 patch at all anyway. It fixes nothing and just adds bugs, as well as screws up mods. So if you are reporting problems like this guy, that is why...
Enjoy!

UPDATED: 07/June/2011
Latest update:
*I removed the old 1.43-xx'd version because according to download stats, nobody is using it anyway
*This update should finally remove all the xx troops, there was one xxI3_Sarranid_Cemaat who still weaseled his way into the tree, fixed it.
*Few last item price tweaks, things should be more or less scaled per faction now. Things are not and will not be exactly scaled to quality/price, as thats not how the native game was made either.
*Few more fixes in troops: equipment, stats, etc.
*The most significant item update is done to bows and xbows in this patch. Bow damage universally scaled down by a small fraction, as well as arrows rebalanced. Now both Khergit and Imperial arrows are equal being the top notch arrows, though Vaegir still have superiority with both bow, and skill with a bow.

v1.1, 14/may/2011:
*Established a standard for tier5 through tier7 units and a faction-based unit bonus system.
*Swadian tier6 armor/weapon sets made, tier7 armor/weapon sets made, tier5 through tier7 rebalancing, reworking of swadian "Isa" guard unit, added tier6 Isa Swiss Guard. Removed Swadian Lancers (the 2nd, sub-par wanna-be knights).
*Nord tier6 armor/weapon sets made, tier7 armor/weapon sets made, tier4 through tier7 rebalancing and re-equipping, made use of some of the nord weapons, though they have funny graphics in-game when swinging...might remove in later versions
*Fixed steppe bandit outlaws linking to "obsolete" khergit upgrades, now they link to the rebalanced and "working" khergit H and C units.

v1.1a, 15/may/2011 - still trying to find crash issue.
*Vaegir finished. Touched up the optional blunt-weapon cavalry to the mix for possibility of infantry/cavalry blunt-weapon armies. marked blunt-weapon cavalry with one "x". upgrades to C7 tree.
*Nord redone (from fresh 2.41a files) to try and fix crashing issue
*Swadia redone (from fresh 2.41a files) to try and fix crashing issue
*All units, including "xx" disabled trees, now upgrade to a tier6 or tier7 tree.

v1.2, 16/may/2011
*Note to potential modders: Dont Use Black Chargers! DUBC!

Thanks to dragonchris for the fix!!
*Sarranid now complete. Behold the most colorful faction ever, with all tree tiers matching in colored armor suits (seriously, this one took a damn long amount of time! but looks well worth it!)

v1.3, 17/may/2011
*Rhodok finished.

v1.4 final 1, 18/may/2011
*Khergit finished. I hope you all like my changes. I didnt think khergit was so "lord of the horse" with half of their branches on foot, so I had to come up with some idea to make more cavalry. Now they are back in the saddle in 3 branches and foot troops on 1 which are more or less "castle guards" or "dismounted lancer" type foot troops, which sticks to the faction flavor better.
*First final version, ENJOY! Report bugs please!

v1.41, 19/may/2011
*Rebalancing some price changes to make them realistically affordable

Went a little overboard on tier7 weapon prices, making masterwork version incredibly expensive. Same with a few pieces of armor when you find a lordly piece.
*Tweaking of items to tune them down a bit to rebalance across factions.
*Changing of armor sets to look better in a few progression trees.
*Found a few unused armor sets that were very nice, like Noble Surcoat, and made the stats upgraded equal to tier7 quality, solely for you and your companions to use if you wish.
*Hopefully have disabled black charger from showing up in shops. Might require new game. Labeled it with "ERROR" so you know not to use it.
*Tweaked and hopefully fixed certain items showing up in the wrong factions shops, and showing up WAY too much (Imperial Bow for example).

v1.42, 22/may/2011
*lots of item tweaking, prices rebalancing, etc. - still not finished doing this though. there's still quite a few items that are priced a bit too high.
*went over the female and male merc trees to give all units a tier5/tier6 upgrade path, as well as updating their prefixes to match the prefix system (added "b" for blunt-weapon female mercs)
*some minor stat tweaks and level changes in a few units.
*crossbow damage significantly increased. to be in line with the suggested values in the "Suggestions" thread. now crossbows should actually do damage. no more 25 damage shots from an arbalest on an armored target.

v1.43-final and 1.5, 23/may/2011
*Tweaks and rebalances of weapons, prices, and a few troops.
::1.43-final::
*This is the final release of xx-marked troops still in the game, unless the version removing them is unsuccessful at working while still being save compatible.
::1.5::
*This is the first release of attempts to remove xx-marked troops from the game. Upgrade paths to xx-troops are now no longer possible. Though they still might show up via garrison recruiting and might be the objective of lord's quests in which they ask you to train a specific type of troop. Please provide a screenshot if using 1.5 in a NEW GAME and you still find xx troops (either ingame or as a request by a lord asking you to train them).

1.51, 25/may/2011
*1.51 fixes 2 bugs found as well as hopefully removing xx-marked troops from the game for good. current existing ones will remain until upgraded/killed. if you find any xx-marked troops in a new game please report it and let me know.
otherwise this is more or less the final version, save for eventual tweaks to item prices (still needs some fixing), and minor tweaks.

1.52, 29/may/2011
*Bows have been nerfed. Too much power in tiers4+.
*XBows boosted, making them useful and not worthless as they are in native. Arbalest fires 2 shots per reload (speed reduced slightly), making the T7 rhodok's actually on-par with "elite" status as they should be.
*All faction leaders have been significantly boosted. Their armor sets are tier7 for their faction, they have all been made level 50 (default 41+), given 400 weapon proficiencies, and 10 in most skills. Be careful when fighting faction leaders.
*All faction "princes" (there are 2-4 per faction) have been boosted: level 40, 300 weapons, 10 or 5 in most skills, but little to no gear upgrades. Each faction has 4 such stronger lords (for each faction that doesnt have 4 princes, other randomly chosen lords got the boost as well).
*This update will significantly help the AI become stronger, hoping to make the game more challenging in the long term.
*Still doing lots of item tweaks and price rebalancing.
*2 faction troops fixed, and the mercenary/outlaw upgrade paths fixed.

1.53, 07/june/2011
*I removed the old 1.43-xx'd version because according to download stats, nobody is using it anyway (17 downloads vs. 168 on latest v1.52):
*This update should finally remove all the xx troops, there was one xxI3_Sarranid_Cemaat who still weaseled his way into the tree, fixed it.
*Few last item price tweaks, things should be more or less scaled per faction now. Things are not and will not be exactly scaled to quality/price, as thats not how the native game was made either.
*Few more fixes in troops: equipment, stats, etc.
*The most significant item update is done to bows and xbows in this patch. Bow damage universally scaled down by a small fraction, as well as arrows rebalanced. Now both Khergit and Imperial arrows are equal being the top notch arrows, though Vaegir still have superiority with both bow, and skill with a bow.

monnikje · May 5, 2011

Good initiative

. I've added your tree to the Submods, Bugfixes and other contributions topic.

Dualhammers · May 7, 2011

I just downloaded this mod and I must say this is my favorite map-pack so far. I really enjoy it.

My only problem is the strength of shields. Many shields have over 300 HP, with quite a few of the Saranid shields topping out around 700hp. This makes a Crossbow heavy army almost useless as there is no chance of the crossbows to hit anything but these shields - as they are very large - and no chance of them breaking. Now I will grant that these shields are realistic in their duration, but the problem is the AI doesn't know how to shoot save for the center of the enemy body and so it becomes decidedly unrealistic. Good archers in real life with shields like these would shoot a volley down on their heads, and then when their shields were facing up would fire another volley low or into their feet. The AI can't do this, so realistic shield HP is imbalanced in my humble opinion.

So what did I do?

I went in myself and lowered the shields to more reasonable levels 50-150hp with a rare shield being around 200-250. This makes it far more balanced and long do you have the infinite walls of shields. Now shields are useful but not invulnerable. They can keep you alive while you close with archers but only if you close quickly. You can no longer park your shielder in a field facing the archers and live forever. If you want to test it out I can upload the file here.

akhenaten · May 13, 2011

gonna try this out, thanks for the effort!

ndo3000 · May 13, 2011

Great take on the troop tree. Gets rid of all the unnecessary chains (although I did love making a completely blunt weapon force of Sarranids and Vaegirs). However, it seems that the Sarranid skirmishers are a bit underwhelming, even with the shield damaging throwing weapons most cavalry with kite shields easily makes the infantry line without harm barring the rare dead horse or random one hit kill. For myself it makes not much difference since I mix and match troops but I find that when helping in large AI battles Sarranids tend to get stomped even with a troop advantage as lords tend to recruit a large number of skirmishers rather than other troop types. Khergits (quite obviously) have the biggest advantage, horse archers just eat through a whole Sarranid army, I've had a few occasions where (especially in open areas like dessert) all melee Kherg cavalry have been wiped out but then I'm left chasing 20 or so horse archers around as the rest of the Sarranid troops try to catch up and end up dying to stray arrows. Rhodoks, Vaegirs and Swadians are much more even but I still find that with comparable forces more often than not Sarranids will lose and I end up having to try to kill the difference by myself, it's expected that I should take a few kills here and there but when allied skirmishers just mill around aimlessly or charge straight at heavy infantry because they cant figure out if they are ranged or melee, then it becomes me against an army. The only even match seems to be against Nords due to their limited archery, no cavalry and smaller shields.

effemb · May 13, 2011

monnikje said:
Good initiative . I've added your tree to the Submods, Bugfixes and other contributions topic.

thanks, ill try to catch up to par

My only problem is the strength of shields. Many shields have over 300 HP, with quite a few of the Saranid shields topping out around 700hp. This makes a Crossbow heavy army almost useless as there is no chance of the crossbows to hit anything but these shields - as they are very large - and no chance of them breaking.

im re-equipping all troops so that the only troops that have these really robust shields will be the tier6/tier7 units. granted, they will have a very sturdy shield that will undoubtedly get them into melee range (if they are melee units) and be able to practically ignore frontal missile attacks (side shots still work perfectly though), but...i would argue that, given the duration and amount of battles a unit has to go through in order to achieve tier6, not to even mention tier7....dont you think it deserves this kind of survivability and superior gear? my oppinion is that tier6, and ESPECIALLY tier7 troops (as, you wont be making many of them, but once you do...) deserve a higher notch to be on a playing field of their own sorta speak. they require so long to train, they should be very hard to kill. thats of course my oppinion and desire for the kind of TT i want to play with. not gonna be everyones. i have been going through though and removing any shields from tier5 and lower troops so that the best shield available for tier1-tier5 troops right now in my TTree is huscarls shield which is around 400 hp. -- remember, shield skill is a huge factor in how long a shield survives as well. shield skill 10 with a crappy 255 hp kite shield still beats a shield 1 infantry with the amped up faction elite shields i put in.
400hp is relatively weak when facing a barrage of rhodok xbows. in fact even the 700+ hp shields with higher resistance rates that i give to the tier6/7 units break off quite often when troops are snailing up the ladders/ramps in sieges.
the very worste thing with shields that i encounter is when i go do a tournament, and typically floris (the companion) who has a 10 shield skill in my game takes forever to finish off if im on a horse archer/thrower and i get him off his horse and have to break his shield to finish him.
that, of course, is something quite flavorful to my game and nothing i will complain about. always dread having to face him in the final (as he most often makes it there) but lol its quite fun too.

However, it seems that the Sarranid skirmishers are a bit underwhelming, even with the shield damaging throwing weapons most cavalry with kite shields easily makes the infantry line without harm barring the rare dead horse or random one hit kill. For myself it makes not much difference since I mix and match troops but I find that when helping in large AI battles Sarranids tend to get stomped even with a troop advantage as lords tend to recruit a large number of skirmishers rather than other troop types.

hmmm thats really odd because i am playing a pure sarranid game right now, day 100+, and i am having no problem absolutely steam rolling over both sieges (offensive and defensive), and field battles with these skirmishers. granted, its a different play style. putting all troops on charge and going AFK doesnt work so well with this sarranid tree. but putting infantry into square formation or at the very least in front of the line of skirmishers, and having some cavalry/horse skirmishers to run in and block any kind of cavalry charge, lets these guys absolutely destroy an enemy advance. the sarranid throwing spear is at top attack-speed for a missile weapon and its also the highest dmg of any missile weapon, especially considering it breaks shields. ive not had a problem yet. one thing that is a bit underwhelming is the ability for the AI to appropriately use horse throwing. they do quite well in close range but chasing other horse archers at higher speeds, and using them for fast hit-and-run, doesnt work quite as well as it should. im guessing the AI is quite bad at actually adjusting its aim to take into consideration enemy momentum versus its own, ie: having to aim ahead of the troop when its running forward, even with a bow, since the troop will move away from its position by the time the missile gets there....i tried to fix this a bit by making the missile speed of the sarranid throwing spear higher by quite a bit, its almost as fast missile speed as an arrow. it helps noticably but not enough imo. not sure what can be edited in the troop tree to fix this though. i am happy enough with the tier6/tier7 sarranid horse skirmishers though having given them a bit of extra juice. higher stats, maxed 10 in horse archery and throwing (and riding), and little bit extra boost in survival skills (ironflesh/shield). stats seem to be a bit much for them, they have higher skills/stats than any other tier7 unit in my modded tree right now, but it just about puts them on even ground since the game handles throwing a little inferiorly.

in any case. im not sure what to say. sarranid skirmishers are ripping enemies apart in my game. have to protect them though, especially against enemy horse. but thats the whole point.

Khergits (quite obviously) have the biggest advantage, horse archers just eat through a whole Sarranid army, I've had a few occasions where (especially in open areas like dessert) all melee Kherg cavalry have been wiped out but then I'm left chasing 20 or so horse archers around as the rest of the Sarranid troops try to catch up and end up dying to stray arrows.

oh, id like to also mention now that, with my mod, i have also edited down the horse charging damage and threshold. this is an ini edit in the modinfo.ini or module.ini or whatever the file is called. i didnt want to include that with the mod since im sure alot of ppl like to tweak that for their preference, but i will release my next version with an update to indicate at what levels/settings i changed in the module.ini

anyhow...
in my games, khergits die miserably to tier6/7 sarranid cavalry. sarranid have well stronger tier6 and 7 cavalry than do khergits. the melee type im talking about. better armor, better horses, better shield, better weapon, higher skills and stats. they are intended to be heavy shock cavalry that are very fast and versatile. eastern cataphract style. with even 50 or so of these per 400 troops, you shouldnt have any problem with enemy horse archers, as horse archers most often tend to swagger around and not run at fullspeed...which makes them easier to chase down. also, all the sarranid skirmishers have shields. which makes them very good versus archers in general. i have not seen this problem you are talking about so i dunno what to say. i seem to see horse archers getting their asses handed to them by the sarranid skirmishers, simply because the sarranids can block the arrows and the horse archers cant, and the sarranids are throwing a weapon that does nearly twice the damage as the horse archers. in fact, when going up against a significant sarranid army in my current khergit game (started it yesterday, playing it right now actually), i dismount my archers so they can actually benefit from being able to pelt the sarranids from long range before their skirmishers get into range. then i try to mount them and have them skirmish the rest of the fight. why? because horse archers dont take full advantage of their superior range versus throwing weapons.

im going to be updating this with quite a few refined and balanced touches though. some items i left in the item file that were a bit extreme, and i also left in there all the really amped up items that i often use for my heroes (which, i should probably disable from being available in the game legitly...some of them like the samurai outfit, already are, but bamboo spear is one example i need to rebalance or remove from merchants at least...to make it more practical).

im rebalancing the faction elite armor sets as well.
currenly they are mismatched all over the place. i released this thing rather prematurely...but it gives a taste at what im trying to do to the troop tree. if you like my idea, ill get it to where its supposed to be based on my description eventually.
what i want is for tier6/7 units to have access to elite pieces of armor and weapons and shields, that no other units have access to, which puts them on a definitive plateu above the lesser troops.
its almost there, i will try and touch things up and release a real big update to this soon.

Rhodoks, Vaegirs and Swadians are much more even but I still find that with comparable forces more often than not Sarranids will lose and I end up having to try to kill the difference by myself

rhodoks as i said in the description play like turtles. they can make a shield wall out of their tier7 shield infantry mixed in with spear/pike infantry which is impossible for any cavalry to get past. then their xbows just sit behind and rain hell. very simple tactic with them, works fine from what ive seen both fighting against them and fighting with them. in fact rhodoks are right now the strongest in my games, outmatching both swadia and sarranid, often at the same time. though, they move slowly, as is intended. i feel like this is working as intended though. letting a heavily defensive faction build up its strength and push its defensive wall forward is always going to be a mistake. of course, the AI doesnt realize this, but you as the player do...so if you dont plan on joining or being rhodok, plan carefully so that you can take them out before they get too entrenched with ranked up troops garrissoning everywhere. in my vaegir game i allied with rhodok and took out everyone else, only swadia with praven left, sarranids with bayyie and ahhmerrad left, and rhodok with jelkala/yalen/uxkhal/suno/shariz/veluca/halmar...and they are giving me quite a fight. even as vaegir. (they basically disable my cavalry in field fights, and overall they have better artillery ability simply because they can survive my archers longer than my archers can survive their xbows....even if my archers can arguably put out more damage by a small fraction). this is working as intended though.

vaegir are quite versatile, and their archers are the best of any, i have never had a problem with vaegir in the long range fight, both in sieging offensive/defensive and field battles. they also have strong horse archers almost as good as khergit. they were intended to be better armored troops than khergit, this is something i have fixed in my next version.

swadians are a mixture, their archers are not as good as vaegir or rhodok, but come in multiple flavour (pure archer - which is still not as good, or spear infantry/archer, which is quite an incredible unit actually, even tho it maxes out at tier5). probably the best garrisson unit for defending sieges, you can quite realistically just stack 400-500 swadian guard in garrison and they will defend against 500-600 attackers. the mainly significant thing about this is that its a tier5 unit, quite easy to train them up en masse. maybe want to put 50-100 shield troops in there too but otherwise, they do quite amazingly well themselves.
they are not at all very effective in field battles, aside from really mountainous ones where their switching ability from being a light archer to a light pikeman is most able to be abused.

anyhow.

if anyone uses this and has more feedback i will definitely give it all a playtest and see what can be done.
will make a more refined and touched up version of this as well, for release soon.
i want to make it compatible though with floris expanded, so, there is unfortunately a bit of limitation in that i cannot add or remove any troops to the tree.
also, im not sure how the presentations work, so i wont be doing the ingame troop tree. though it is much less required with this mod (not really required at all). maybe ill get around to doing that later. but not for now. if anyone wants to do it for me, feel free to.

and final note is that none of these troop changes will show up in a current game. the troops ARE different, but troop stats/levels/etc is not updated until you start a new game, so if you are using this mod on an old game, just ignore the info you see in the troop details ("tell me more about you" when talking to a troop)...they are not accurate, as they simply show the details from the previous troop tree, whatever it was when you started that game.
start a fresh game each time you install a new troop tree and look at the upgrade tree to see the actual stats. its just visual though, the tree is compatible with save games.

wow that was a huge wall of text.
bad choice to reply while playing and keep typing stuff every few minutes in-between battles....lost track of what i was talking about and probably repeated myself alot.

effemb · May 14, 2011

updated due to popular demand.

swadia and nord completely reworked, re-equipped, rebalanced.
will get the rest done in the coming days. i suggest only to download v1.1 if you want to play as swadia or nord

or dont mind them being a bit more..umm... "efficient" than they were.

-Ghost · May 14, 2011

I think I'll try this out, sounds like a good addition to the mod. So in its current state, Nords and Swadia are the most overhauled/balanced?

effemb · May 14, 2011

found a few errors, and updated it again, 09:30 GMT, 14/may/2011.....

and yes, my original version was a rather quick overhaul of all factions. it was however, sloppy...and not so balanced...and not so consistent....and a few other issues/flaws/etc.

but since ive seen such a good response and it seems people like it, i felt it would be sortof shameful not to do it right. so this update includes how the rest will be done which means a fine tune balancing, a very numerically logical and rational (and fair) troop stats, and total re-gearing of the tier6/7, and most of the tier5 troops (with updating of tier2-tier4 if changes were made to troop design, but im trying to keep that to a bare minimum).

so anyway, nords and swadia are now *done*...pending any flaws i find which will get updated in future versions.

Vazzaroth · May 14, 2011

I've switched to this troop tree for about a week, and it's made me tear myself away from F&S again

I'm hesitant to switch to the new version becuase A) I'd like to wait until all races have bonuses to avoid OP'ing factions and B) I'm 150 days into a Swadian Campaign and I don't want to change anything...

I haven't seen any problems with shields myself, but I always thought they were too weak in Native anyway. I still made a Nord Lord drop his shield in one Great Lance charge though

Is there any way to remove the XX troops completely from the player's options? I understand they are there for savegame compatibility but IDK if it's possible to keep the troop but make it untrainable. I've still seen a number of them in Garrisons even with a RTT new game.

effemb · May 14, 2011

Vazzaroth said:
I've switched to this troop tree for about a week, and it's made me tear myself away from F&S again

tbh I wasnt really expecting such a good response from this...being the internetz and all, i have usually assumed to expect the worste and just not care about it

but...this community seems alot more mature and friendly, and hearing that people enjoy it is the one and only reason that makes me really want to finish it. So, thank you in return.

I'm hesitant to switch to the new version becuase A) I'd like to wait until all races have bonuses to avoid OP'ing factions and B) I'm 150 days into a Swadian Campaign and I don't want to change anything...

totally understood. though if you are playing swadia, id highly suggest using this new version. of course, if you dont find any problems with the way it is, dont worry, but swadia comes kicking quite a bit now, as well as armors redone for tier5-7 they now also look like an army worthy of an old empire.
the new stats wont show up in your saved game in-game troop tree viewer but, they are changed....the new items will show up when inspecting inventory though.
up to you. i made this release now rather than waiting til its 100% done just for players that want to use swadia/nord. but, up to you

and dont worry about it being overpowered. its more of a rebalance and retune rather than overpowered. the overpoweredness comes in the redesigning of some of the units, and the more accurate focus they will now get to their role. it wont make the AI all that much stronger (well, in swadia's case, it will, because my original version was actually quite underpowered for swadia compared to the rest).

I haven't seen any problems with shields myself, but I always thought they were too weak in Native anyway. I still made a Nord Lord drop his shield in one Great Lance charge though

ya im actually looking into changing couched damage somehow to make it survivable. for a tier6/7 unit at least, that has a shield up, should not auto-die from a charge that he is anticipating and blocking.
not sure this will be possible simply from editing troops and items file though. my module.ini edit reduces the effect of mass of horses just running into troops though. you cannot do that especially if they have spears. you will all get dismounted and pwnd. rhodoks and nords are great at this.

Is there any way to remove the XX troops completely from the player's options? I understand they are there for savegame compatibility but IDK if it's possible to keep the troop but make it untrainable. I've still seen a number of them in Garrisons even with a RTT new game.

unfortunately in order to keep it save game compatible, the troops in the tree cannot be removed or added. serious problems arise if you add/remove troops to the tree and then try to use it with a previous save game.
when my entire thing is finished i will release a version without the XX troops at all, which will require a new game. as i am making updates to it however, I do not want to release a version every few days that forces players to remake their game.
when the tree is final, finished, balanced, playtested and ive had enough feedback to make it good enough for my expectations then ill release a final version (probly 1.5) which will require a new game to work properly.
until then, sorry for the eyesore, but well, the alternative is worse.
and there is nothing i can do really to stop the AI from making those troops. i guess i could disable the upgrade path to those troops but im not sure what kind of effect that will have on save games.
ill try it out and see.
hmmm another possibility is having all XX marked troops upgrade to a non-XX unit 1 tier higher...i dont think there are any tier7 units disabled, so maybe ill try that, itll at least make all XX troops still worthwhile and put them on the "right path" (haha pun intended

) ....

siis · May 14, 2011

can you reupload v1.0?

after copying the 1.1 files my game keeps crashing in battles after a few (~30) seconds, then i copyed the original femp 2.41a files but the game won't load because some error (Load error: Invalid number of item kinds: 2190)

now i want to test if the battle keep crashing when i use the 1.0 version but i deleted these files

-

if you change the upgrade cost for XX units to something very high like 100k would this stop the ai to use them?

and can you balance the troops without the need to edit some file for the user?

Vazzaroth · May 14, 2011

I was going to post support of this tree sooner, but I figured it was an old topic and I'd be necroing, but I didn't look at the dates. I might try the new game then. I'm just worried about playing the Vaegirs, which I intend to start soon.

And just to be clear, My couched Great Lance only broke his shield, I don't think it injured the lord, or at least didn't kill him. My infantry took care of that.

I did have to switch to 1/2 damage (I wish there was a 3/4th option!) to myself though, after a few throwing axe hits for 70+ dmg even in my 40-50 per bodypiece armor... I think thats just how M&B is though. I already switched to 1/2 in F&S because of muskets (And I think theres no shame in that game, doing that!) and I still almost get one-shotted in my breastplate.

The XX troops aren't that bad, I was just wondering if it's possible to retain them in towns and lord armies to keep savegame, but remove their bubble from the Upgrade option. I trained one Swadian Tracker.... and I'd rather stick with my Longbowmen and the weird spearman/archer one.

effemb · May 15, 2011

siis said:
can you reupload v1.0?

after copying the 1.1 files my game keeps crashing in battles after a few (~30) seconds, then i copyed the original femp 2.41a files but the game won't load because some error (Load error: Invalid number of item kinds: 2190)

now i want to test if the battle keep crashing when i use the 1.0 version but i deleted these files

-

if you change the upgrade cost for XX units to something very high like 100k would this stop the ai to use them?

and can you balance the troops without the need to edit some file for the user?

ya im running into this crashing thing too, and not sure exactly what to do...been testing it for hours and hours, one troop type at a time to try and find the culprit. thought i found it in the swadian swiss guard unit, but then i crashed in a battle without one.

can i ask you, what troops you have in your battles that crash?
swadian or nord? what tiers? im wondering if its the items file thats causing the crash though and nothing to do with troops...could be.

about upgrading costs, thats not something that you can do via troops or items files. and i dont want to have this mod touch anything other than those 2 files....to make it as compatible as possible and actually stick to what its purpose is: a troop tree. nothing else.

anyway this is really really aggravating.
unfortunately i dont have a save of the v1.0 but its still online at the old URL...
http://www.filedropper.com/floris24-rtt
http://www.mediafire.com/file/lz0yg5pr16lgvyd/Floris2.4-RTT.zip put it up on new mirror too...

anyone have any idea what could cause this crash?
only thing ive edited is troops and item_kinds1 files and done so via morgh's tool.

effemb · May 15, 2011

Vazzaroth said:
I was going to post support of this tree sooner, but I figured it was an old topic and I'd be necroing, but I didn't look at the dates. I might try the new game then. I'm just worried about playing the Vaegirs, which I intend to start soon.

And just to be clear, My couched Great Lance only broke his shield, I don't think it injured the lord, or at least didn't kill him. My infantry took care of that.

I did have to switch to 1/2 damage (I wish there was a 3/4th option!) to myself though, after a few throwing axe hits for 70+ dmg even in my 40-50 per bodypiece armor... I think thats just how M&B is though. I already switched to 1/2 in F&S because of muskets (And I think theres no shame in that game, doing that!) and I still almost get one-shotted in my breastplate.

The XX troops aren't that bad, I was just wondering if it's possible to retain them in towns and lord armies to keep savegame, but remove their bubble from the Upgrade option. I trained one Swadian Tracker.... and I'd rather stick with my Longbowmen and the weird spearman/archer one.

I am putting in the next release the ability to upgrade all XX marked units to a non-XX marked one. thereby making them not-so-obsolete....
personally ive just been disbanding any XX's i get, or sending them to garrison a town in the back corner of my kingdom for my later games. or make patrols out of them. but having them be able to upgrade i think makes things alot easier. it will also help the AI.

update: im currently redoing the entire thing from the original 2.41a bugfix troops and items file.
not sure what caused the crashing bugs, but i also updated to morgh's tools 1.35 (was using 1.30), and hopefully this will negate any possibility of having such erroneous and hard to track down bugs again.
sorry if it caused anyone a bit of headache, but youve no idea the headache its causing me!!

so far ive completely redone swadia and nord.
had their item IDs in a list already from before.
going to playtest those now....then start on the others....
im thinking of just releasing it when its finished, all 6 factions.
so thatll be awhile.

siis · May 15, 2011

if i replay a battle after a crash i can usually avoid the crash when i play my char more defensiv and just stand around giving orders, so far the game crashed only when i charge in the enemy

i don't know if it's possible but maybe some item-grafic bug, when you see an particular item the game crash?

effemb · May 16, 2011

yup having the same problem...not at all sure why.
i took fresh copy of the troops and items files and re-applied all my edits as well as finishing vaegir yesterday.
and still it has the issue.

im under the assumption right now that, there are a few items that cause a serious kind of memory leak, that when they are rendered on the units they werent made properly and are causing bug in the game. i added a few items to troop equipment tables that were not previously used by any troops in the game.

ironically the small list of items i added to equipment tables include a custom armor by Duh....its the swadian highlander I6.

anyway i have to ask you to help track this bug down. what troops are you using in your battles that crash?
if i can reasonably narrow it down i will try to remove all equipment from the troops that seem to always be present in a battle crash, and test it....

im going to wager that without ISa6_Swadian Swiss Guard, ISa5_Swadian Guard, the Isa6 and Isa7 nord spearmen, the C4 swadian knight (black charger horse), the I6 swadian highlander and the corresponding items added to them that didnt previously "exist" in the game...that there wont be crashes.

its just, figuring out exactly which item, on which troop....there seems to be no way to debug this as i cant get any crash info or error dump via some kind of logfile....

dragonchris · May 16, 2011

Think I read some where that black chargers cause crashes.

effemb · May 16, 2011

gonna try that and see if it fixes it.
thanks so much for the tip, if it fixes it i have to somehow give you a gift ;p
ive seen my C5 swadian knight many times in battles with the black charger though...of course that doesnt mean its not causing the crash.

edit: well i just tested in 4 consecutive really large battles (500+ troops each side) with full swadian army (which caused crash before) after taking out the black charger....gotta say, thanks, alot!

going to work on it hard today and see if i can at least get the rhodok/khergit/sarranid troop trees put back to how they were and then put up a release.
ill finish up their faction armors afterwards.

dragonchris · May 16, 2011

Your welcome. A good gift would be a finished troop tree, so keep working on it.

[REL-minimod]Reasonable Troop Tree (RTT) v1.53 - (Floris Expanded 2.4/2.41a)

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