Bug reports and suggestions - read the first post

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Vornne said:
Aldric said:
Does having "piercing" and "cutting" ammo does change anything to overall damage ? Or does the damage output type are fully determined by the ranged weapons.
I believe the damage number adds to the bow damage, but the damage type (cut, blunt, pierce) is taken from the bow only. You might want to test it yourself, because I don't remember how old that information is, and whether there has been any engine changes affecting it since.
How to see the damage type in the game? Just check the damage values from piercing and cutting arrows on good armour?
Vornne said:
Aldric said:
In CRPG, arrows have the"cut" type, but certain arrows are "pierce". I would like to do that as well.
cRPG uses WSE2, which is privately developed by cmpxchg8b (he is a cRPG developer, and originally made it specifically for that mod). You can't expect any feature in cRPG to be possible in official Warband.
Hm, I thought, it is free to use it in other mods... Am I wrong?
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
I think, if that balance was accepted by people playing PW (would be interesting to calculate how many people do it), it is OK - their thoughts about balance can differ from those of Native players long ago, can't they?
It would be practically impossible to calculate the opinion of everyone who plays PW: there are various servers around the world, which don't often have much connection between them, and there are also multiple forums used and many people who don't use forums at all.

This mod was never designed as a "direct democracy" type where people can just vote to decide what will be done, because I think that is a bad practice in the long run. I feel certain that the mod would never have been as successful if done that way, because so many people don't actually know what they would enjoy playing, when all their conflicting ideas are indiscriminately mixed together. People can post suggestions, but detailed and insightful opinions are taken individually, ignoring votes or simple "+1" or "me too" posts, which don't reveal intelligent thought.
I think, there are ways to do it.
1) Monitor server list for a week, find the most popular PW-servers.
2) Contact the communities and ask them if they are ready to take part in testing some new features.
3) If they agree (they probably will if you support this thing), they, for example, implement this new balance for a week and collect people's opinions on the forum.
4) If people see that they really like that, that is a signal. If they don't, it's also a signal. If 50/50 - it's another signal, a signal to remake things.
5) If you doubt, you can just release two versions of PW - with classical combat system, similar to Native (not equal - you don't have horse archers or guard crushing maces), or realistic.

I don't say, that I suggest to do it, I just say that it IS possible to collect peoples's thoughts directly. But you shouldn't ask them if they want something they have not seen to be released, you should just make them to try it for some significant time and then ask if they want to keep it. No other ways.

Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
From my point of view and from the point of many Nexus Roleplay players proved by them still playing the game, people like that "armour and money persistance". Why does it not look like traditional grinding? Because a) You can't actually use more than 150k of your money banked per day b) Your development is capped on Plate or Elite Armour, not allowing you to become too defended c) Armour is underpowered, giving you a protection of good chainmail in the cost of influence like of a tournament  armour set.
Whether hosters add explicitly discouraged features to their own servers does not influence the design of official PW. Your meaning also seems contradictory: saying that it is not like "traditional grinding" because currently plate armor doesn't make a huge difference, but then suggesting plate armor should be very protective, benefiting people who grind (boringly, away from interaction, creativity, or danger).

The approximate historical period of Warband (and by extension, PW) is before well made and very protective full suits of plate armor were used and widespread; it is centred more around chain mail, leather, and quilted cloth armor. It is not mandatory for scene makers to include the plate armor set or plated chargers.
Not contradictory.
If strong armour would be VERY expensive, take a lot of time and resources to make etc, etc, people will think twice before buying it with a chance to lose after the first couchlance or after outnumbered by more disciplined enemies. So, we say: "Feel free to grind, but be ready to lose it" - in most games, like in cRPG, you keep things you grinded even if you die.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
By the way, how to implement my script feature in the game? Where should I paste my script? Or should it not be connected to the game client and be server-side?
You can implement whatever feature you like in your own local test server or in a differently named module release, but to make only server side changes requires more thorough knowledge of what could be affected, and careful testing. I should be able to specify if a feature is possible server side only, given an overall description.
Surely, rebalancing the combat system can't be done without client-side changes. :smile:
Hopefully, it will only need a few scripts.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
I mean, there is some probability, that, for example, a sword bounces from plate armour and I have an "armour block". I have heard about it, read on Wikia about M&B and seen several times in single-player game, but actually have no idea what it was.
As said: the armor is simply reducing the damage dealt low enough that the game engine plays a different animation and sound for the hit.
Hmm, OK. Is it then possible to make some changes in how arrows and blades penetrate the armour? For example, if I want swords to penetrate it better.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
You mean, it is only possible to add upper thrust to a weapon that has and upper swing by replacing it, or I will have to replace an existing animation in the module system and delete it completely for all weapons to add upper thrust?
It is only possible to make a new animation available by replacing an existing one in the game, removing from all weapons of that overall type using it. For example, changing overhead swing to upper thrust for your spear would change the animation for all polearms, including long axes, glaives, hammers, etc.
Hmmm... Not possibility AT ALL? Or is it just very hard or whatever? If it is, why? Because I really want to see my pikes thrusting up and down, and my polehammers to swing in 3 sides in 1 mode and thrust up and down in another.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
Another question - how do you reply and split quotes in parts? It is time consuming to copy the message and delete unused passages in each part.
I just click to quote the post, add my replies in between each section, closing the quote off using [ /quote ] then copy the opening [ quote author=Baskakov_Dima ... ] line and paste it after my reply, before the next split up section; it might be a bit more time consuming, but I am used to typing things out carefully and correctly when programming, so that is no big deal.
Thanks, replied to you now with your method. It is very effective.
Vornne said:
Splintert said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
"Combatlogging" is prohibited on most servers and punished by permanent ban.
More accurately, a short ban and a character wipe plus removal of some funds from their external bank.
For the obvious ones that are reported and investigated, maybe; but players can easily figure out less obvious ways to benefit from being able to disappear from the world at will and protect their stuff, that still damage immersion and competitiveness. I personally think saving everything whenever a client disappears is a bad design, wide open to abuse.
You know, these ways just compensate you the losses from appearing in the world in unexpected situatuions. Like logging off as a FactionA, logging in as FactionB at war with FactionC in a castle belonging to FactionC.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
1) Scene props. You said, it is impossible to spawn them. How do I spawn new cannons in NW then, when I take artillery train?
I never said that, because it would be obviously incorrect. What you might be confusing with is a regular explanation of mine in this thread: scene props are intentionally not spawned by player actions in PW, because there is no way to ever remove them and their effect on performance without completely restarting the mission (game) - an engine limitation that will not be changed or fixed.

It was something tested years ago in early PW development, but it soon caused the performance to slow unacceptably for all players connected, even by the lower standards of continuous play time in those days. The choice is between having a game mode that is stable over days to weeks, or allowing players to clutter the scene up, and PW is obviously designed around the former. Almost all other existing mods do not have this issue, because they can just spawn as many props as the players want, then the whole scene is reset in 10 to 30 minutes when the current round ends, restoring any small performance loss.

Another issue is that spawned scene props that have a "use" trigger (you can hold f / the use control to activate them) sometimes are not usable at all, seemingly randomly. I reported it to a TaleWorlds developer at the time (since they were releasing patches much more often then) and he could identify the cause, but decided not to fix it for reasons I don't clearly remember; I think the change or redesign might have been too complex or invasive to justify, after they had stopped major new development of Warband.
OK. So, what if you make some limited changes? For example, players have no ships when the map starts. They have ship building stations. They build, build, build, and when they finish, a ship is spawned. They can't spawn mor ships then set. If ship is destroyed, gone outside map borders etc, building a new ship will result in teleporting the old, destroyed one, and repairing it. And the same with carts - what if there will be no "initial" carts, but people will have to make them, without possibility to mak more than limited?

New question. I've heard, that guard break depends also on the angle and is more likely to
fail on low angles. Does damage of ranged or even melee weapons have some linkage to angle of hit? If yes, how is this angle calculated and what angle is used?
 
Baskakov_Dima said:
How to see the damage type in the game? Just check the damage values from piercing and cutting arrows on good armour?
I don't think there is any operation to check the damage type directly, so you would have to make some tests: probably with some high damage melee weapons of each type against heavy, light, and no armor, printing the values to the server console, then repeat with various combinations of bows and arrows of different damage types, comparing the results.
Baskakov_Dima said:
Hm, I thought, it is free to use it in other mods... Am I wrong?
Not version 2: the original WSE is only compatible with an outdated Warband version, which is not compatible with the latest servers and official steam clients; the WSE2 is a private tool only for cRPG.
Baskakov_Dima said:
I think, there are ways to do it.
1) Monitor server list for a week, find the most popular PW-servers.
2) Contact the communities and ask them if they are ready to take part in testing some new features.
3) If they agree (they probably will if you support this thing), they, for example, implement this new balance for a week and collect people's opinions on the forum.
4) If people see that they really like that, that is a signal. If they don't, it's also a signal. If 50/50 - it's another signal, a signal to remake things.
I already explained in the last reply that I don't think that would be fairly representative, and also that I don't think it would be desirable as management for development. I am motivated to develop this mod to create an interesting game for people similar to me, not for maximum popularity with some sort of average gamer. I don't benefit by the number of people playing, only by my own enjoyment of seeing systems work as or better than designed, and hearing from people who found that interesting situations were caused by the features.
Baskakov_Dima said:
5) If you doubt, you can just release two versions of PW - with classical combat system, similar to Native (not equal - you don't have horse archers or guard crushing maces), or realistic.
That is effectively the same as releasing your own sub mod, as I suggested; but you can't use the name "PW" or something very similar, to avoid confusing people and bug reports, making extra trouble for me.
Baskakov_Dima said:
If strong armour would be VERY expensive, take a lot of time and resources to make etc, etc, people will think twice before buying it with a chance to lose after the first couchlance or after outnumbered by more disciplined enemies.
I disagree: if people can abuse buggy scenes or server situations to pile up effectively unlimited amounts of gold, any price will be relatively insignificant; and the mod is designed to be more of an action based environment where it is possible to build up (each week or so you play) fairly quickly to combat effectiveness, with character progression mainly hindered or helped by other players in the scene, rather than mainly by sinking large amounts of time into routine actions.
Baskakov_Dima said:
Hmm, OK. Is it then possible to make some changes in how arrows and blades penetrate the armour? For example, if I want swords to penetrate it better.
You'd just have to increase the damage values, decrease it for other types, or mess with the damage settings in module.ini (in a sub mod).
Baskakov_Dima said:
Hmmm... Not possibility AT ALL? Or is it just very hard or whatever? If it is, why? Because I really want to see my pikes thrusting up and down, and my polehammers to swing in 3 sides in 1 mode and thrust up and down in another.
Not possible at all: it is hard coded into the game engine.
Baskakov_Dima said:
You know, these ways just compensate you the losses from appearing in the world in unexpected situatuions. Like logging off as a FactionA, logging in as FactionB at war with FactionC in a castle belonging to FactionC.
I don't think so: people will become used to and take for granted any extra benefits they get, but still complain and expect compensation when problems happen.
Baskakov_Dima said:
So, what if you make some limited changes? For example, players have no ships when the map starts. They have ship building stations. They build, build, build, and when they finish, a ship is spawned. They can't spawn mor ships then set. If ship is destroyed, gone outside map borders etc, building a new ship will result in teleporting the old, destroyed one, and repairing it. And the same with carts - what if there will be no "initial" carts, but people will have to make them, without possibility to mak more than limited?
The ship building station idea is something I have considered a few times in the past, but ended up just having admins take responsibility for resetting ships instead, overseeing any collision issues.

Having a similar system for carts would be a disadvantage compared to the current "freely available" system, or there would be the problem of deciding when a cart should be reset / cleaned up / taken over, trying to figure out with code whether nobody is still using or intending to use it.
Baskakov_Dima said:
New question. I've heard, that guard break depends also on the angle and is more likely to
fail on low angles. Does damage of ranged or even melee weapons have some linkage to angle of hit? If yes, how is this angle calculated and what angle is used?
What do you mean by "guard break"? If you mean attacking around the back of another character, I don't know the precise angles involved, and can't remember if there is a difference between shield protection against projectiles and melee weapons - I vaguely remember PapaLazarou posting some test results of that sort, but don't remember the conclusions.
 
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
If strong armour would be VERY expensive, take a lot of time and resources to make etc, etc, people will think twice before buying it with a chance to lose after the first couchlance or after outnumbered by more disciplined enemies.
I disagree: if people can abuse buggy scenes or server situations to pile up effectively unlimited amounts of gold, any price will be relatively insignificant; and the mod is designed to be more of an action based environment where it is possible to build up (each week or so you play) fairly quickly to combat effectiveness, with character progression mainly hindered or helped by other players in the scene, rather than mainly by sinking large amounts of time into routine actions.
1) Buggy scenes are rare on servers like Nexus.
2) You can pile a lot of gold - but you can't use more than 150k per day. It is actually the cost of a full tincan armour and weapons set bought from Merchants on Nexus now.
3) Even full tincan armour does not save you from outnumbering, couched lance and steel bolts from siege crossbow in the head, it does not make you immortal. And even boosted armour will not do.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
Hmm, OK. Is it then possible to make some changes in how arrows and blades penetrate the armour? For example, if I want swords to penetrate it better.
You'd just have to increase the damage values, decrease it for other types, or mess with the damage settings in module.ini (in a sub mod).
No, I mean, what if I want different reactions to armour? For example, a shot and a hit both deal 45 damage to a naked man, and sword deals like 30 against armour, and an arrow - like 15.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
Hmmm... Not possibility AT ALL? Or is it just very hard or whatever? If it is, why? Because I really want to see my pikes thrusting up and down, and my polehammers to swing in 3 sides in 1 mode and thrust up and down in another.
Not possible at all: it is hard coded into the game engine.
Can I change some rarely used animation? Or, for example, make 1h and 2h share one stab animation and substitute, for example, 2h stab with polearm upper thrust? Or must it be polearm animation?
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
You know, these ways just compensate you the losses from appearing in the world in unexpected situatuions. Like logging off as a FactionA, logging in as FactionB at war with FactionC in a castle belonging to FactionC.
I don't think so: people will become used to and take for granted any extra benefits they get, but still complain and expect compensation when problems happen.
What "extra benefits" do you mean? Like what?
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
So, what if you make some limited changes? For example, players have no ships when the map starts. They have ship building stations. They build, build, build, and when they finish, a ship is spawned. They can't spawn mor ships then set. If ship is destroyed, gone outside map borders etc, building a new ship will result in teleporting the old, destroyed one, and repairing it. And the same with carts - what if there will be no "initial" carts, but people will have to make them, without possibility to mak more than limited?
The ship building station idea is something I have considered a few times in the past, but ended up just having admins take responsibility for resetting ships instead, overseeing any collision issues.

Having a similar system for carts would be a disadvantage compared to the current "freely available" system, or there would be the problem of deciding when a cart should be reset / cleaned up / taken over, trying to figure out with code whether nobody is still using or intending to use it.

1) Why did you decide not to make building stations for ships?
2) You can just let players spawn them to some limit, and then make spawning impossible, without any deletion/resetting.

Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
New question. I've heard, that guard break depends also on the angle and is more likely to
fail on low angles. Does damage of ranged or even melee weapons have some linkage to angle of hit? If yes, how is this angle calculated and what angle is used?
What do you mean by "guard break"? If you mean attacking around the back of another character, I don't know the precise angles involved, and can't remember if there is a difference between shield protection against projectiles and melee weapons - I vaguely remember PapaLazarou posting some test results of that sort, but don't remember the conclusions.

I mean, guard crush by 2h maces and mauls in Native. It is more likely to succeed while hitting from angles close to 90 degrees. Is there any relation between angle and armour penetration/damage?

New questions, because I didn't find answers anywhere else.

1) How do I catch fish? I hit water with fishing spear - find nothing, I put fishing net - find nothing.
2) Where is the mechanism to manage ships? I mean, big ones, not boats.
 
Baskakov_Dima said:
1) Buggy scenes are rare on servers like Nexus.
It depends on the definition of "buggy", but scene changes that enable ridiculously easy money production seem quite common; and also with eternal money saving the exploit needs only to be available for a short time for players to set themselves up for a very long time.
Baskakov_Dima said:
2) You can pile a lot of gold - but you can't use more than 150k per day. It is actually the cost of a full tincan armour and weapons set bought from Merchants on Nexus now.
It doesn't matter - that is still a lot of money that has no benefit to the current server environment, through adding resources or weapons, or just by populating the game with serfs that give a reasons for protection and area control. Limiting money withdrawals per day would mainly just affect people that have nothing else to do all day, not people who play an hour or two at night after work or school, who might not bother to make any other contribution to the server than buying weapons and armor to kill people.

To the people who complain about current servers just consisting of endless wars and robbing: it's your own fault for wanting the rest of the game to be made irrelevant. Since the "end game" of powerful combat troops and equipment is made stupidly easy rather than require ongoing intelligence and effort, almost everyone will just be a "tin can" wandering around trolling other people, feeling that there is nothing else worth doing.
Baskakov_Dima said:
3) Even full tincan armour does not save you from outnumbering, couched lance and steel bolts from siege crossbow in the head, it does not make you immortal. And even boosted armour will not do.
But when enough people in a group playing together have vast piles of money to keep buying top tier weapons and armor no matter how foolishly they play, they can dominate other players: it spoils the dynamic, competitive, consistent environment parts of the mod design.
Baskakov_Dima said:
No, I mean, what if I want different reactions to armour? For example, a shot and a hit both deal 45 damage to a naked man, and sword deals like 30 against armour, and an arrow - like 15.
I don't think that is made possible by the module system; but you might be able to get a somewhat similar effect (reducing projectile effectiveness against heavy armor) by changing the bow and crossbow damage types from pierce to cut (or arrows and bolts, if that is now possible with the game engine).
Baskakov_Dima said:
Can I change some rarely used animation? Or, for example, make 1h and 2h share one stab animation and substitute, for example, 2h stab with polearm upper thrust? Or must it be polearm animation?
Not too sure: you would just have to try it. Various attack animations might be hard coded to certain weapon types, or cause bugs or visual glitches if used with the wrong types; see the end of header_items for the available flags. It could be a major change to the combat system to do something like combining 1h and 2h stab animations, almost certainly changing the attack range of one type.
Baskakov_Dima said:
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
You know, these ways just compensate you the losses from appearing in the world in unexpected situatuions. Like logging off as a FactionA, logging in as FactionB at war with FactionC in a castle belonging to FactionC.
I don't think so: people will become used to and take for granted any extra benefits they get, but still complain and expect compensation when problems happen.
What "extra benefits" do you mean? Like what?
The "compensation for losses" you originally talked about - which would never be fairly balanced, and players would do what they could to maximise the "compensation" even if they don't deserve any, but still ask for more compensation if problems happen.
Baskakov_Dima said:
1) Why did you decide not to make building stations for ships?
Because it would be a lot of work, with problems to overcome relating to where the ship should suddenly appear without intersecting with an existing ship, making both unusable, or flinging players in that area away to their doom; so I took the easier route of making human admins responsible for any outcomes.
Baskakov_Dima said:
2) You can just let players spawn them to some limit, and then make spawning impossible, without any deletion/resetting.
That doesn't seem any benefit to players compared to the current situation, just requiring an extra step to get a cart, and frustrating players who gather all the resources then find out they can't make a cart because the limit is reached (no obvious reason).
Baskakov_Dima said:
I mean, guard crush by 2h maces and mauls in Native. It is more likely to succeed while hitting from angles close to 90 degrees. Is there any relation between angle and armour penetration/damage?
I don't remember hearing about any such thing. I seem to remember a more detailed thread, but this is all I found with the search feature: cmpxchg8b again.
Baskakov_Dima said:
1) How do I catch fish? I hit water with fishing spear - find nothing, I put fishing net - find nothing.
A commonly misunderstood part of the design is that fishing schools (groups of fish) are not static where the scene maker placed them: they move about in connected water areas of suitable depth, gradually building up fish numbers over time, reducing when caught by players. You can try finding them by exploratory fishing, or by looking and listening for periodic water splashes and sound effects (more common with greater numbers of fish in the school). Fishing was designed to be a more difficult and interactive method of gaining food, but relatively rewarding when the current fish location is found; I probably made it a bit too difficult for a start, made it easier in later versions, but possibly still need to make them a bit easier to locate.
Baskakov_Dima said:
2) Where is the mechanism to manage ships? I mean, big ones, not boats.
What sort of management? There are entries in the admin tools menu to teleport through all the ships in the scene, and to reset all sunken ships (and also any ship currently stood on by the admin).
 
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
1) Buggy scenes are rare on servers like Nexus.
It depends on the definition of "buggy", but scene changes that enable ridiculously easy money production seem quite common; and also with eternal money saving the exploit needs only to be available for a short time for players to set themselves up for a very long time.
Depens also on spending rate. 150k is a price to become a full tincan on EU Nexus now, and any amount of money will actually not let you to last your money long. I play mastersmith, helping my faction during wars by filling stocks and building ladders, so I don't care at all about money - I just don't need it actually.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
2) You can pile a lot of gold - but you can't use more than 150k per day. It is actually the cost of a full tincan armour and weapons set bought from Merchants on Nexus now.
It doesn't matter - that is still a lot of money that has no benefit to the current server environment, through adding resources or weapons, or just by populating the game with serfs that give a reasons for protection and area control. Limiting money withdrawals per day would mainly just affect people that have nothing else to do all day, not people who play an hour or two at night after work or school, who might not bother to make any other contribution to the server than buying weapons and armor to kill people.

To the people who complain about current servers just consisting of endless wars and robbing: it's your own fault for wanting the rest of the game to be made irrelevant. Since the "end game" of powerful combat troops and equipment is made stupidly easy rather than require ongoing intelligence and effort, almost everyone will just be a "tin can" wandering around trolling other people, feeling that there is nothing else worth doing.
Serfs and MS are actually rarely seen playing just for money. The biggest sums are, probably, got by lords having access to money chest of the capital, where merchants work, and by mining gold.

But if faction has no serfs, mastersmiths etc., it will once just find itself unable to continue war or defend themselves - because of low stocks, and that is an issue. You don't get a lot of money from serfing for a faction, but you can ask to be payed and earn a lot.

And about "a lot" or "not a lot" I will ask you a question. Is one thousand dollard a big sum of money? One can say - yes, I can buy food for a month for that. The other can say "no", as he can't buy a new car for that. Who is right?

Also, we just see an inflation in terms of combat goods. Horses and elite armour prices are grown. I think, it is OK and balances the economy.

Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
3) Even full tincan armour does not save you from outnumbering, couched lance and steel bolts from siege crossbow in the head, it does not make you immortal. And even boosted armour will not do.
But when enough people in a group playing together have vast piles of money to keep buying top tier weapons and armor no matter how foolishly they play, they can dominate other players: it spoils the dynamic, competitive, consistent environment parts of the mod design.
I actually see it good, that teamplay and discipline is the keypoint in this game - watch Lannister and Greyjoy against other clans, they are normally equal in numbers, but much stronger in discipline.

As said above, it is not possible to buy full top-tier set more and more because of daily withdrawal limit. Of course, it is good to have several tincan guards inside castle or protect commander with good armour, but it is not so useful to charge with tincans. The most common stratagy is building an infantry pike&shield formation near enemy castle, then building a ladder, charging to gatehouse, opening and guarding it, then killing everybody inside and not letting them to get back to fight. It must be done extremely fast, otherwise it will only result in gear losses from attackers.
The problem is that it is very hard to defend two castles at a time, but it is already far from my main thysis - teamwork is important, it is good, that it is, and tincan armour does not give such a big advantage, as it can't compensate being undisciplined.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
Can I change some rarely used animation? Or, for example, make 1h and 2h share one stab animation and substitute, for example, 2h stab with polearm upper thrust? Or must it be polearm animation?
Not too sure: you would just have to try it. Various attack animations might be hard coded to certain weapon types, or cause bugs or visual glitches if used with the wrong types; see the end of header_items for the available flags. It could be a major change to the combat system to do something like combining 1h and 2h stab animations, almost certainly changing the attack range of one type.
Of course, it would change the range - that is why some 1h weapons from cRPG have 2h animations. But I have now worked out another good concept, so I don't need it anymore.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
You know, these ways just compensate you the losses from appearing in the world in unexpected situatuions. Like logging off as a FactionA, logging in as FactionB at war with FactionC in a castle belonging to FactionC.
I don't think so: people will become used to and take for granted any extra benefits they get, but still complain and expect compensation when problems happen.
What "extra benefits" do you mean? Like what?
The "compensation for losses" you originally talked about - which would never be fairly balanced, and players would do what they could to maximise the "compensation" even if they don't deserve any, but still ask for more compensation if problems happen.
What benefits do you mean? I ask you to name them, as I don't see a lot of them.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
1) Why did you decide not to make building stations for ships?
Because it would be a lot of work, with problems to overcome relating to where the ship should suddenly appear without intersecting with an existing ship, making both unusable, or flinging players in that area away to their doom; so I took the easier route of making human admins responsible for any outcomes.
What about spawning ships sunken and increasing amount of wood needed to repair ship fully? Then people will have to "build" them when the server starts.

Also, reagarding ships, I would like to see some equipment like bridge on big ships for boats, to make it a little bit easier to hit the shore and come back without any damage to the ship.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
2) You can just let players spawn them to some limit, and then make spawning impossible, without any deletion/resetting.
That doesn't seem any benefit to players compared to the current situation, just requiring an extra step to get a cart, and frustrating players who gather all the resources then find out they can't make a cart because the limit is reached (no obvious reason).
OK, let these "building" props be marked when the limit is reached and they are not usable anymore. Much better than just spawning them.
And that is not just another step - when server starts, you don't spectate in order to hunt for a cart anymore.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
I mean, guard crush by 2h maces and mauls in Native. It is more likely to succeed while hitting from angles close to 90 degrees. Is there any relation between angle and armour penetration/damage?
I don't remember hearing about any such thing. I seem to remember a more detailed thread, but this is all I found with the search feature: cmpxchg8b again.
So, it seems to be no connection between angle and guard crush. There is a chance that "unknown variable" is some angle calculation, but it is too hardcoded to use then, if cmp didn't find it, so I will think I can't use it.
Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
1) How do I catch fish? I hit water with fishing spear - find nothing, I put fishing net - find nothing.
A commonly misunderstood part of the design is that fishing schools (groups of fish) are not static where the scene maker placed them: they move about in connected water areas of suitable depth, gradually building up fish numbers over time, reducing when caught by players. You can try finding them by exploratory fishing, or by looking and listening for periodic water splashes and sound effects (more common with greater numbers of fish in the school). Fishing was designed to be a more difficult and interactive method of gaining food, but relatively rewarding when the current fish location is found; I probably made it a bit too difficult for a start, made it easier in later versions, but possibly still need to make them a bit easier to locate.
What about making fishing from boat or ship? Would be interesting and make boats more useful.

Vornne said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
2) Where is the mechanism to manage ships? I mean, big ones, not boats.
What sort of management? There are entries in the admin tools menu to teleport through all the ships in the scene, and to reset all sunken ships (and also any ship currently stood on by the admin).

The one to make a big ship move back or forward - must doesn't seem to work. Or should it be?

____________

BTW, I have some new questions again about my new ideas about balance I am making for PF, that is going to be dramatically rebalance by me.

Firtst. How do I make all weapons unable to block down? If I remove parry_forward_polearm flag through Morgh's editor, weapon is no longer able to block anything or is ONLY able to block downwards.
Second. How do I delete stabs for weapon or weapon class? Deleting it using editor only results in using 1h stab animation, editing it with editor leads to some very strange changes.
Third. I have seen some variable called Hit points, and it is used with weapons. What does it do? it is only seen with Morgh's editor in compiled text files, not in module system.
 
i actually play to raise gold as mastersmith.... u can find me a lot of times either running the merchant shop or in town watch fac as ms in jelk armoury making weapons
 
Is it possible to be able to equip a money bag without having to drop a weapon? Usually, it is risky for those who have all the gear slots filled. Having a robber dropping his weapon in front of his vinctim is not the best possible tactic. I'm not really asking for a new slot, but just being able to pick the bag up and use it. If you want to switch to one of your weapons, the bag will be dropped on the ground.
 
Would it be possible to add carts which people could go inside of and use as transport? Would be pretty cool in terms of RP. Lords/Nobles could use them to travel around in safety and style while others could start their own taxi service.

Also, if the above is possible, cages on carts would be a nice addition as well. Nothing more entertaining than pulling a cart full of prisoners around the streets while they get pelted with seeds. :lol:
 
Baskakov_Dima said:
But if faction has no serfs, mastersmiths etc., it will once just find itself unable to continue war or defend themselves - because of low stocks, and that is an issue. You don't get a lot of money from serfing for a faction, but you can ask to be payed and earn a lot.
A problem with that is the disconnection of player money from the current environment: if there is no stock at all, people can't buy anything, but someone with piles of spawnable money can use it to buy items other people have created. So someone who became a multimillionare by exploiting a bug undetected months ago or by droning away on deserted servers, can then swoop in and repeatedly consume the items made by newer players who are starting from scratch as the mod was designed; a sort of "multi level marketing" effect where players rank up by simply hanging around for ages, not contributing anything useful in the latter stages. This mod was designed around player skill, with dynamic competition and involvement, not to reward lazy players who feel entitiled to power and riches by hanging around the game for years.
Baskakov_Dima said:
Also, we just see an inflation in terms of combat goods. Horses and elite armour prices are grown. I think, it is OK and balances the economy.
I disagree: the effort is not linked to the reward in any meaningful way when players can stack up millions forever, outside the current environment; the price of a certain type of armor raised from 15K to 150K to would not make any practical difference to someone with easy millions stored from some glitch or exploit, but it could ruin many features of the game for people who play the mod as designed, cooperating and competing within the current game environment to gain equipment and control. I think "balancing" games by just increasing prices is a terrible idea, because it makes the main method grinding away stupidly until the ridiculous costs can be afforded.

People might object that things like mining iron ore or gathering flax are pretty boring "grinding", but the point of the intended design is that they work in with the weapon and armor supply, taken from limited resource locations which could be controled by other players or organised factions, making the end result not grinding because the mining or processing is only a part of the interactive and competitive whole. Incidentally, scene design where - for example - iron mine location and ore amount is so plentiful that there is no need for competition works against this, as do server rules that presume "peaceful commoners" must be let alone to grind in safety: as I have repeated in this thread, over the years.
Baskakov_Dima said:
The problem is that it is very hard to defend two castles at a time, but it is already far from my main thysis - teamwork is important, it is good, that it is, and tincan armour does not give such a big advantage, as it can't compensate being undisciplined.
Team work is still just as possible within a less inflated environment, and I think it is more interesting with a mix of different tiers of characters involved, rather than almost everyone in full plate.
Baskakov_Dima said:
What "extra benefits" do you mean? Like what?
As said, I was simply referring back to the original conversation; to quote it:
Baskakov_Dima said:
Vornne said:
Splintert said:
Baskakov_Dima said:
"Combatlogging" is prohibited on most servers and punished by permanent ban.
More accurately, a short ban and a character wipe plus removal of some funds from their external bank.
For the obvious ones that are reported and investigated, maybe; but players can easily figure out less obvious ways to benefit from being able to disappear from the world at will and protect their stuff, that still damage immersion and competitiveness. I personally think saving everything whenever a client disappears is a bad design, wide open to abuse.
You know, these ways just compensate you the losses from appearing in the world in unexpected situatuions. Like logging off as a FactionA, logging in as FactionB at war with FactionC in a castle belonging to FactionC.
A more specific example would be someone peeking out from an isolated building and noticing a large group of hostile players moving closer, obviously soon going to find and capture or rob them; so the player logs out before anyone notices, waiting 10 minutes for danger to pass, unrealistically teleporting away from any possible risk.
Baskakov_Dima said:
What about spawning ships sunken and increasing amount of wood needed to repair ship fully? Then people will have to "build" them when the server starts.
I have already explained that starting carts destroyed does not seem like any advantage for players over the current situation, and the same applies for ships. Increasing the amount of wood needed would make ships very durable as they originally were, when people generally didn't care about damaging the ship because they probably wouldn't be affected, only the person in a few hours or days time that finally sinks the ship, then being required to gather many loads of wood to repair it. The behaviour of players towards crashing ships seems much more realistic now.
Baskakov_Dima said:
Also, reagarding ships, I would like to see some equipment like bridge on big ships for boats, to make it a little bit easier to hit the shore and come back without any damage to the ship.
If you mean adding the plank on the largest ship to all the smaller versions, it would take time creating meshes, adjusting, and testing; I don't feel motivated to do all that work again multiple times. The ships all have different combinations of speed, protection, durability, capacity, and other features; which I like better than multiple variants with the same functionality and only cosmetic differences.
Baskakov_Dima said:
OK, let these "building" props be marked when the limit is reached and they are not usable anymore. Much better than just spawning them.
That does not address the problem stated in my previous reply.
Baskakov_Dima said:
What about making fishing from boat or ship? Would be interesting and make boats more useful.
I spent quite a lot of time considering that when designing the fishing feature, but never figured out an intuitive and decent looking method. There didn't really seem to be a way to lean over the side of a ship and interact with the water, as the current PW implementation and Warband engine work.
Baskakov_Dima said:
The one to make a big ship move back or forward - must doesn't seem to work. Or should it be?
All ships can be moved by using the up and down arrow keys near the mast area, which was originally designed for the two ships with one mast - so for the two masted versions, find the spot in between the masts which allows you to operate the sails. Steer the ship using the left and right arrow keys at the very back of the ship, next to the rudder or steering oars.
Baskakov_Dima said:
Firtst. How do I make all weapons unable to block down? If I remove parry_forward_polearm flag through Morgh's editor, weapon is no longer able to block anything or is ONLY able to block downwards.
Don't use Morgh's item editor or any similar tool for modding: they are only for slight tweaks to Native as a beginner, and very probably not compatible with PW in some ways (since it has extra code frameworks related to items and scripted features), and are definitely not compatible with making changes in the module system.
Baskakov_Dima said:
I have seen some variable called Hit points, and it is used with weapons. What does it do? it is only seen with Morgh's editor in compiled text files, not in module system.
It means nothing; just an interface issue of the editor.
The Bowman said:
I wonder if it's possible to create a maximized map with polygons at 2 meters.
I have actually tried starting a couple of new scenes to make use of all the new PW features, and used a polygon size of 3 with the maximum size, for a medium sized scene with better looking terrain; but I realised that I don't have the free time or motivating reasons to spend all the time required any more. It is better use of skills for other people to make scenes, and focus on the code myself.
The Bowman said:
Is it possible to be able to equip a money bag without having to drop a weapon? Usually, it is risky for those who have all the gear slots filled. Having a robber dropping his weapon in front of his vinctim is not the best possible tactic. I'm not really asking for a new slot, but just being able to pick the bag up and use it. If you want to switch to one of your weapons, the bag will be dropped on the ground.
Not practical: the simple and best performing way to interact with a dropped item is to pick it up, and the game engine restricts picking anything up if there is no free slot. Having the server run a distance check over item scene props and try to guess which one the player is interacting with would be worse for performance, and would be abused by players to walk around repeatedly clicking the button to "magnetically attract" any nearby money bags, also lagging the server.
hirovard said:
Nope. Its simply impossible due to a game engine issue not allowing players to stand on a scene prop whilst it is moving
Nearly, but not quite accurate: players can't stand on a scene prop attached to an agent without being flung away, and that method is used for decent performance with many carts being used in the scene. The bug / design feature has been reported to TaleWorlds long ago, but there was no response.
 
I wonder if you could write a map concept or your idea about a PW map. There are people who still argue about maps not following the main idea of the mod. If you do not have time for a map, there might be plenty of mappers who would wolunteer in creating a new default scene, including me, we just need a detailed description on how it should really work and look like.
 
Removal of Kill / Deaths on the scoreboard since people seem to play the mod for " score " as the sole purpose...
 
I have a problem about EU Nexus. I am join the eu nexus, but when I click ''join the game'' it doesn't work. I haven't this problem at another PW servers. Please help me. thanx
I removed the game but still it doesn't work.
 
Make it so multiple people can train at the same time with 1 class training. It is annoying to wait in line for other people to finish their training, making it possible to train at the same time would make it a lot easier and not waste people's time.
 
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