Flintlock repeaters

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nijis said:
In other words, at most engagement ranges for both combat and hunting (probably 50m or less), the ability of the shooter to hold the barrel steady and think clearly while in the throes of an adrenaline rush is probably much more important than the inherant accuracy of the weapon.

They're not as inaccurate as portrayed, but bear in mind testing brings it's own problems (gunpowder itself brings a whole host of variables). Also consider that this is hunting; even if you do make the shot without missing there's no guarantee it will bring the quarry down. In the time it takes you to reload for your second shot the target can flee.
 
bear in mind testing brings it's own problems (gunpowder itself brings a whole host of variables).

Certainly.

Also consider that this is hunting; even if you do make the shot without missing there's no guarantee it will bring the quarry down. In the time it takes you to reload for your second shot the target can flee.

Someone who has actually hunted may correct me, but my impression is that with the North American Whitetail deer, at least, if you miss the first shot with any weapon which makes any noise at all, even the 2-3 seconds it would take to cock and re-aim with a repeater would be too long to get a second shot.
 
Funny, the BAR is also referred to as being beloved in many memoirs.
It shows up much more commonly being denigrated, though, for being utterly underwhelming vs. the MG34 / MG42- heavy, bulky, low ammo capacity and prone to jam at the damndest times.  I'm not at all surprised that some subjective experiences were great, some poor; it's like any gun in that sense.  I don't know why you're hot and bothered about it, though; the general opinion about the BAR is quite well supported by historians, and as the weapon's no longer issue in any army that matters, it's moot to boot.

I can see bad doctrine preventing use of an effective weapon for a generation or so, especially a generation without major wars, but not for a century, particularly not as violent a century as the late 18th/early 19th.
I would have to say that while I certainly don't see the armies of the period as completely self-defeating or unable to innovate, that this is a very mixed bag; there were a lot of mechanical concepts in the field of weaponry that were invented during the early to mid 19th Century that didn't really reach fruition until the 20th, for various reasons.  For example, during the American Civil War, both Gatling and Agar's guns were bought by the Union Army, but not in numbers; part of the problem was logistical, but a lot of the problem was doctrinal; nobody had a real clue as to how these weapons were to be used yet. 

It's fair to say that militaries tend to be fairly conservative about weapon systems that impact the main battle (as they conceive it- which usually lags behind the plans and capabilities of the enemy) that would change infantry doctrines; as an interesting subject, see the relatively lengthy list of projects intended to finally provide a replacement for the M16 family with something else.  There have been quite a few weapons that were promising, but the ones that might have proven real game-changers, like the X23 or the G11, have faced the stiffest scrutiny.  That doesn't mean that there weren't any problems with the X23, but I think that it's fair to say that they could have been sorted out, given time and funding.  I think it's really interesting that when something like that is proposed that is an obvious game-changer, instead of putting a lot of money into getting the design flaws worked out, the final military spending responses are typically focused instead on trying to wring another smallish improvement in the existing arms, even though it might truly be more cost-effective, in terms of blood if not treasure, to get the next generation of weapons working.

So how the **** is it that apparently troops are carrying around custom weapons when the technology to modify them is much less prevalent, in the 18/19th centuries?
I think that this is not entirely accurate.  For example, consider the vast array of weapon systems issued to snipers during the American Civil War; a lot of factors were in play there; there were snipers with optics that weren't modern, but would be recognizable today, and they can and did hit targets at ranges that are outside the ranges non-marksmen are expected to reach, even today. 

In fact, I'd argue that while one might see little modification of personal arms, and agree with you on the archeological record in that respect, that it paints a picture that isn't entirely accurate, and it ignores some things. 

If you take a plowboy, who may have experience shooting a smoothbore varmint gun but no experience with a military weapon, and hand him a Springfield... what's realistic to expect, in terms of modification, even if it's allowed?  During this period, optics existed, as seen at the link above, but they were expensive, fragile and not something that most of the public knew about.  It's a lot different than today, where practically any 12-year-old boy can tell you more than you want to know about what he thinks about red-dot sights vs. ACOG, because these things have become part of video game culture.

In short, I think that generalization on the whole topic of customization is both inaccurate and, if one is an analyst, is liable to lead one to false premises.  Culture, technology, available resources and training (not just rote, but understanding of how a weapon system works, and thus how to improve performance) have had a considerable impact on the adoption and modification of arms throughout history.  The whole concept of a force armed and equipped identically is far more of a historical aberration than anything that happened during the American Civil War, frankly.
 
AKM said:
So how the **** is it that apparently troops are carrying around custom weapons when the technology to modify them is much less prevalent, in the 18/19th centuries? And by "customizations," you're aware we don't mean 'just' COTS modifications like the modern selection of RIS rails, vertical foregrips, stocks, and optics, right? It goes so far as to include handcarving stocks to be more comfortable, which we've seen on some period (19th c) hunting - but interestingly, not issued Baker - rifles; reshaping the stock with a knife to give it the typical Bavarian profile, for instance. Or tacking on a cheekpiece. Etc.
You did not read my post throughly, I said that it was in 1890-1940 (rough estimation) that weapon modification was at a low for standard infantry. In the 1700-1800s (and before) modifications were common. My whole point was that Pre-WW weapons were simple and the average peasant (with his average skills as a craftsmen from his day job) could modify them. WW weapons were somewhat too complex for the average man to 'enhance' in any meaningful or affordable way. Post-WW this still holds true but innovations in the field allow anyone attach practically anything to practically any gun with a small screwdriver.

AKM said:
I've given some of you the benefit of doubt, which was clearly misplaced. I'm done here.
Bye. Don't let the door hit you on the way out, now.
 
nijis said:
I think folks underestimate the accuracy of a smoothbore. Somewhere (I will try to find the source, I have posted the link elsewhere on these forums) a group tested the accuracy of 18th century smoothbore muskets vs 18th century rifles by bracing the weapons and seeing how the individual shots deviated from a group. The rub was -- the musket, if fired with perfect aim (accounting for drop), would hit a mansized target 50% of the time at 100 meters, the rifle would hit 80% of the time.

Hit percentages from a shooting stand for a 2.5' x 6.5' target board @100 yards (est. group size in paranthesis)
0.75 cal Brown Bess replica, 0.735" ball with rear sight fitted (target load) (i.e. "perfect aim"): 100% (24")  :cool:
0.75 cal Brown Bess replica, 0.69" ball with rear sight fitted (military load): 60% (~50")
0.75 cal Brown Bess replica, 0.735" ball, no rear sight (target load): 40%
0.75 cal Brown Bess replica, 0.69" ball no rear sight, offhand shooting: 0%  :razz:

0.58 cal Zouave Rifle replica, 0.575" ball, offhand shooting: 100% (16")
1860 US War department tests, trained soldiers firing "as skirmishers" with 0.69 cal percussion smoothbore muskets (unknown ball size, 2'x6' target): 34%

(Given, A most pernicious thing (1994))
 
Interesting -- a 60% hit rate/50" group for a military load is about the same as the other test. Do you know if 0.575 would be a military load for a 0.580 cal rifle?
 
That guy here sounds like he knows what he is talking about, and he states that 0.5775 (possible typo?, 0.575 sounds more feasible and that's what Given was using) was initially used, but the war experience lead to a switch to 0.571. And the guys who are using those Rifles for fun and/or hunting nowadays seem to prefer 0.570.
 
nijis said:
Someone who has actually hunted may correct me, but my impression is that with the North American Whitetail deer, at least, if you miss the first shot with any weapon which makes any noise at all, even the 2-3 seconds it would take to cock and re-aim with a repeater would be too long to get a second shot.
Depends on what you're hunting I guess. Dunno about you, but if I'd just pissed off a bear I doubt I'd be too happy about standing around to reload :wink:

xenoargh said:
It's fair to say that militaries tend to be fairly conservative about weapon systems that impact the main battle
Meaningless for the period in question. For a start, the engineers were considered a separate armed force from that of the actual army, as was the ordnance. I mean given the central commands of the army couldn't even get it's constituents to agree on what colour uniform to wear, the idea that they had much control over the use of weapons is rather fanciful :lol:
 
nijis said:
Someone who has actually hunted may correct me, but my impression is that with the North American Whitetail deer, at least, if you miss the first shot with any weapon which makes any noise at all, even the 2-3 seconds it would take to cock and re-aim with a repeater would be too long to get a second shot.

Don't know which species it was, but that deer seemed to have been pretty oblivious to the bullets whizzing around his head (and to the accompanying bangs)  :razz:
 
Someone who has actually hunted may correct me, but my impression is that with the North American Whitetail deer, at least, if you miss the first shot with any weapon which makes any noise at all, even the 2-3 seconds it would take to cock and re-aim with a repeater would be too long to get a second shot.
That's generally true around here.  Whitetail deer are used to being hunted, and are fairly easy to spook.  I'm sure that's not true everywhere.
 
It took me a while to dig trough my library, but I finally found weapon which might be called "flintlock repeater": The Mortimer multi-shot pistol which uses modified Lorenzoni system.

Normal Lorenzoni pistols. Crank is used to turn the drum breech so that it can be loaded from above.
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Mortimer Multi-shot: a modified Lorenzoni with 7-shot magazine. Crank is on left side of gun and not visible in this photo.
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At the rear of the barrel was a drum which was rotated with external crank. The drum hand two recesses, one for ball bullet and one for powder charge. The wooden pistol grip had hopper for bullets and reservoir for loose black powder.

The Mortimer multi-shot was loaded by pointing the barrel downwards, and turning the crank once. When the drum was rotated, one bullet would drop from the hopper into bullet recess at quarter-turn, and drop from recess into breech at half-turn later. In a similar way, black powder poured into the powder recess at half-turn, and at full-turn the powder recess was behind the breech, forming the firing chamber.

Mortimer multi-shot was dangerous weapon for the user, since there was a possibility that propellant gases would flow around the drum and ignite powered reservoir.

The pistol fired 12.7 mm lead balls at 135 m/s muzzle velocity. The grip held bullets and loose powder for 7 shots.

Source: Smith, Graham - Military Small Arms (1994)
 
I asked about these weapons, since I had a thought about the fact the military has no limited budged. At least it seems so in most of the countries... But maybe these repeaters wouldn't be always ideal weapons to deploy them in field, they could still make a decent self-defence, assuming that at least at first shot wouldn't jam or whatever, which this would already make them at least as good as singleshots.

But in these repeaters, how they achieved the ball and powder were tightly sealed in place, you know, ordinary muzzleloaders had to have the weapon rammed down the barrel, making sure the ball wouldn't roll down and powder being tightly packed behind to increase the force exerted on the ball to maximize the range and stopping power?
 
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