SP Antiquity [WB] Shadows in the Desert - An Ancient Middle East Mod

Users who are viewing this thread

Going to have finals soon, but there'll be about a 20 day window between that and my J-term 2 weeks in Paris that I'll get some stuff done.  :mrgreen:

On a few side notes, I read a compelling case in Ancient Warfare magazine supporting the idea that Iron was not superior to bronze, but rather cheaper and more available. The author of the article was one Paul Mcdonnell Staff, noting:

1) Bronze was generally harder than wrought iron
2) Bronze Age gave way to Iron because Iron was more widespread (thus cheaper), even though it was harder to work
3) Unlike bronze, it was much more susceptible to corrosion
4) Weaker wrought iron was found to be sufficiently strong for tasks at hand
5) The fall of the bronze age (1200-1000 BC) and population migrations (1200-1100 BC) caused a decline of trade that made bronze more difficult to acquire
6) Circa 400 BC steel production was discovered, and steel would be stronger than bronze with a sharper edge but more susceptible to corrosion.

This isn't some authority to end all authorities but it does give a compelling argument against the popular idea of "Iron vastly superior to bronze in all things". Ultimately in our case I don't see a dramatic difference in iron vs bronze gear. If there is it might be that iron is cheaper but slightly inferior (Which goes with the narrative of the largely iron equipped Assyrians and Persians being about large imperial armies, not smaller corps of aristocratic warrior elites).

Also conversing with the folks at Bronze Age Center and elsewhere to figure out the historicity of leather cuirasses (not just the segmented 'apron') for the Mycenaeans. Some argue against it, but I'm buying into the approach of Andrea Salimbeti who favors more prevalence of organic/perishable armor.

Seems like we historical fans have something of a knee-jerk reaction to leather because of its apparent over-saturated attributing by past historians. You can see that for how despite the hardcore "leather-hating" historical elites recognizing the Tube and yoke cuirass was more likely a leather spolas, not a linen linothorax, the latter remains the dominant popular view. In SITD's case it just means ideas for Mycenaean/Trojan soft armor.
 
But iron was generally lighter. Allowing for thicker armor, which allowed for better protection. Bronze swords are known to have been inferior though, since they bent relatively easily. So the theory that Greek armor the equivalent of medieval plate armor in its time holds no water.
 
Roach XI the Magnificent said:
But iron was generally lighter. Allowing for thicker armor, which allowed for better protection. Bronze swords are known to have been inferior though, since they bent relatively easily. So the theory that Greek armor the equivalent of medieval plate armor in its time holds no water.

But that's Greek bronze against Medieval steel, with let's say roughly 2,000 years distance (Using 1000 BC as a measurement of when iron metalurgy was practiced, though I think we'd have to move it ahead a few centuries for when people used iron in armor). So there's no denying steel is better than bronze in everything except corrosion, but steel wouldn't see use until 400 BC. Even then metalurgy wouldn't be like hitting a new level in an RPG: Bronze metalurgy circa our period would have about 2,000 years (3000s BC to 1200-600 BC) of practice over the more newfangled iron metalurgy.

They would have a strong experience with what mixtures of alloys, what temperatures to reach, how to cool it, who has the best copper and bronze and so on. Whereas with iron it had been restricted to meteorite sources prior and even when they know how to mine and smithy it it's a completely newfangled product to work with.

I think the issue of iron vs bronze is what could be called 'political' in the historical community. One of those highly contested issues with no clear cut dominant opinion, which draws folks into respective camps. Personally I support the position I noted above, since it seems like the iron argument seems to rely on logic (Iron today is better than bronze today) and the momentum of historical perception. I've seen references to scientific study or analysis in favor of bronze, but that's not to say there isn't any to support iron
 
i wanted to ask will there be a indian faction ?

and realy i would like to see this mod as a Miracle like bc  i really would like to play from the high lands in Anatolia and the Caucasus
to Yemen and Ethiopia  some many vast culture between them i really will happy for it :smile:
 
The amount of work we're facing makes it likely we'll be cutting back rather than adding to the first release's scope, I'm afraid.
 
nekit996 said:
Sorry im russian, and dont understand( When was this mode realese?

Hикто не знает, понимаешь?


@Sahran

Yeah, I know, but bronze muscle cuirasses were 0.6 - 1mm thick. IMHO scales with were more effective and practical. So no reason for overpowered Greeks.
 
Roach XI the Magnificent said:
nekit996 said:
Sorry im russian, and dont understand( When was this mode realese?

Hикто не знает, понимаешь?


@Sahran

Yeah, I know, but bronze muscle cuirasses were 0.6 - 1mm thick. IMHO scales with were more effective and practical. So no reason for overpowered Greeks.

Yeah they won't be. Haven't determined itemization yet but how I generally saw the scaling was:

0-10 = light civiliany dress.
10-20 = heavy fabric, leather, fur, whatever.
20-30 = quilted or rigid/stiff fabric/leather
30-40 = basically 'lighter' bronze or iron scale or lamellar, along with perhaps segmental armor
40-50 = "heavy" bronze or iron scale (I am not sure what determines which is light and which is heavy) and cuirasses.
 
nekit996 said:
Ок....спс

No problem.


@Sahran Hmm yeah. I think those stats are very sensible. This mod is going to be awesome!

If only someone found out how to implement chariots... Is it not possible to make them as a type of mount? The driver being attached to the model of the mount, and the user being the archer. Granted, no heavy chariots, but still better than nothing.

Then again, I am utterly ignorant at modding any games besides rtw.
 
It's a tricky bit of scripting business, but I know it's been done in M&B (the developer of the Wedding Dance hasn't been around for about a year, I tried leaving a PM) so it is possible. Just something we may or may not be able to uncover in the future.

Won't have anything until after not this monday but the monday after that (last day of my finals, but I'll be moving back that day or the day after). Then I'll get started on new stuff I think.

If someone wants to help something I still am looking for is the Akkadian/Sumerian term for "Sea People". It doesn't have to necessarily be the specific term they used and could just a translated equivalent to "Sea People" "People from the Islands" "People from the Sea" "Sea Raiders", ect. I'd like to 'try' and use Akkadian or general Semitic for the lingua francia of non-factional stuff like bandits, mercenaries or whatever, the same way EB uses Greek or a late Roman mod uses Latin

For instance a cursory glance, one I have to double and triple check, has it read that Tiamtu / Tamtu = Akkadian basic word for "Sea" & Tenesetu = Akkadian for "people", life, or living being. So Tiamtu-Tenesetu / Tamtu-Tenesetu may work, sounds nice, real rough translation trying to throw the two words together but I prefer it to calling someone a "Sea People". Sounds so damn silly.
 
A lingua franca is a good idea, yeah.

But the only people we know called the sea people sea people were the 'Gyppos (HBO Rome  ftw). Why don't you just call them "Greek bandits" or something?
 
Only a small subset of them were probably Greek: the Denyen (Danaans), or ekwesh (achaeans). The problem is I'd want to depict the whole scope of Sea peoples, although in theory I could just go with "Lukka", except that the "Lukka" are already within the Arzawa League (Troy and friends). Though the rest could have been, they seem to have been Aegean-based peoples in general. The EB2 topic I 'think' you were also in (judging from the same cool signature) gave the most viable scientific case I've come across for the whole sea people hypothesis: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=10685790#post10685790

The position I personally take, albeit as a layperson (I never understand genetics) is what the second guy says: "In all story short, it seems that the Etruscans were indeed from Anatolia but their genetic marker is not very significant in nowadays Tuscany, probably because their immigration didnt have a signifcant impact in the autochthonous population.".

We don't have Italy, of course, but the latimes article cites them saying it was Lydians (Which could be Shardana, Tyrrhenians/tekesh).

Amurrum for Westerner would work, but it's also what the Amorites were called. I don't think we'll have Amorites necessarily (They may be assigned to Israel if I can find Amorite was the general term for East-Bank Jordanians), but it would confuse people.

You have a point -  could call them Aegean or Mediterranean Raiders/Bandits/Pirates, but that's my annoying proclivity towards more ethnic/foreign names. Course units won't be (and couldn't be, it'd be too difficult for me too) fully ethnic, but we make sure to use indigenous terms in lieu of something like "Veteran" "Levy", and so on.
 
375px-double_crown-svg.png

crowns1.jpg
 
Specularity for leather is a tricky business, but I do want to try and pursue it. I think it makes it look better, especially the black leather. Fairly simple armor to get back into the swing of things, but I won't be probably working on anything else until after finals are done this monday. Base materials are kuauik's (khopesh, headwear, egyptian shield, basis of the skirt and lobster armor), straight sword is NAUE from Lynores.



 
Possible, but I am not sure what you have in mind. The tricky business is that it'd have to entail shrinking the skirt and other parts as well, but if you can mark on the picture (or describe) where you would have it bend - I assume you mean for it to have more of a Hourglass shape (narrower at the bottom two segments, wider at the top three).

 
Back
Top Bottom