Author Topic: Changing buggy castle  (Read 5270 times)

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Neterkun

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Changing buggy castle
« on: March 15, 2011, 08:33:33 AM »
I've been trying to revert  some castle  to the native one   but I wish to only revert those that are buggy and prevent AI from moving well ( such as unhun castle.   

Unfortunatly all the castle are listed in numbers  from 1 to 48    same for the city     I wish to work a little with modding and adding removing stuff that work or doesn't  but  with the way it's liste I got no idea which castle is which  so   does somebody know a way to  know which castle  is number 1 which is 2 etc  without  having to remove one then go check is it load   etc.... 


ohh and If I wanted to create new map ( if I wish to fix castle that dont work) what kind of program do I need to do so ?   thanks:P


and If I wish to "preset"  course for soldiers to fallow ( like If I want  1/3 of ennemie soldier to go around the castle and attack from the side)  where do I set this and how 

( I only roughly need one exemple of how it's done after that I can extrapolate and do different thing based on the exemple

« Last Edit: March 15, 2011, 08:37:41 AM by Neterkun »

Cornuthaum

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2011, 08:36:37 AM »
If someone could outline how to do this, it would be appreciated: Knudarr castle is impossible to take, unless you go all John Rambo, grab an arbalest, and do it alone.
"I haven't gotten around to violating you yet, muffin" is far from the same meaning as "You're safe, sweet-pea."

Neterkun

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2011, 08:39:26 AM »
that's why I  want to get down on this and  mod new castle and fix current one   there is actualy a few new castle that are really great to play ( as native one are kinda boring  and same)  and maybe create new map for city and stuff  (im pretty sure I can make  sweet stuff I just need an exemple of how it's done and I'll be able to work from that ^^

Smarmellows

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2011, 08:39:41 AM »
You can find a list of all the castles/cities and what their number is in the parties txt, it has the name and number of each castle. For instance uhhun is castle 40.
If you wish to edit the scenes then you need to run M&B in edit mode, refer to the instructions on this post under "how to edit scenes" http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,57569.0.html

Since Floris is using, at least in part, the el arte de la guerre siege pack, then you're likely running into a lot of the same problems I did. Which prompted me to edit every single castle/city in the game, reverting several back to default and editing those. If you're interested in doing this yourself be prepared for a lot work, I've spent 5-6 hours a day over the past week bug squashing in these siege scenes.

Neterkun

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2011, 08:48:15 AM »
woohaaa ^^ this is sweet thanks ^^ now I only need to figure out how to make attacking unit  fallow differents ways

Smarmellows

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2011, 08:52:29 AM »
"Courses" for soldiers to follow are AI meshes, you'll see them when you open up the scene editor in game. It's one of the more annoying and intensely time consuming parts of scene designing. Put simply, the AI is stupid, a delicate baby you must guide and nudge to get to do what you want. They follow a mesh on the ground from one square (gray space) to the next, plotting a course through the shortest, always the shortest route possible. Their course goes from one ai mesh "face" as they're called to which ever one that is adjacent, or connected, that offers the shortest route to their target. Anything is considered adjacent and a possible route if it shares an edge or a vertices. KEEP THAT IN MIND when you edit the Ai mesh! If there's something in between two mesh faces they'll get stuck on it! Even if the only thing connecting those two meshes is a vertices corner. This is what I've gathered from many laborious hours of nudging and observing the AI as they use the AI mesh, and looking at what TW designed on the default areas of scenes.

If soldiers could be preset to follow a course, with a proportion of the army, then you wouldn't be asking about how to edit scenes because it would have already been used, sadly.
The AI is very simple in what it can do, infantry can only defend one position, archers only fill spots on the tower because you set spawn points there, once those archers die no new ones go to those locations, because the AI doesn't follow a code to tell it to fill archer positions, it just uses the stand ground command where they spawn, with a small AI routine to buffet and bounce around their location to fill out towers. You have to be careful with those spawn points too, it's often why you see archers sticking out from towers and hanging off the side, they likely spawned there or in a space with no room and got bumped out. Or they walked there trying to fill out the walls spaces but managed to walk OVER a short wall because nobody put in an AI limiter to stop them. (AI limiters are invisible walls used to stop the AI from moving into a location)

*Addendum
To put it further, and I hate to crush your dreams, you cannot, can not, tell the AI to follow a specific path, only give them a short one or several ones of identical size and hope they use it. Getting soldiers to use 3 ladders on a wall rather than one depends entirely upon the number of faces it takes them to get to their target, if one ladder offers a shorter route, they'll use that. If you adjust the direction they approach the ladder from, make it more even, then you make 3 ladders have an identical desirability for reaching their target, which is ALWAYS enemy soldiers. Your soldiers by default are on the CHARGE command, they will attack and kill everything they can reach until the battle is won, they do not follow pre-defined paths or plans. They have a target, they path to that target, that's all.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2011, 05:02:10 AM by Smarmellows »

Smarmellows

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2011, 09:18:48 AM »
The siege pack itself can certainly do with being updated, as I understand it the maker has been having a combination of internet access problems and little free time to spend on scene editing.
If Floris mod pack is still using the version I downloaded, which was recently, then many of the scenes are completely broken. Several of them I had to gut or revert because the AI just could not win the siege at all, it either got horribly stuck or just went zombie because it couldn't find an AI mesh. I've only recently finished my first bug fixing pass, over the past week I've edited every castle and city, and I'm about 90% satisfied with the fixes to do a regular play through of my own mod compilation.
Another thing to note, that siege pack is not compatible with polished landscapes, which changes many of the scene objects, so you'd see pine trees in the desert or thick forests clipping walls. That is another one of the things I fixed. Looking forward to a mostly bug free play through now..   :lol:

pada

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2011, 03:29:34 PM »
You can find a list of all the castles/cities and what their number is in the parties txt, it has the name and number of each castle. For instance uhhun is castle 40.
If you wish to edit the scenes then you need to run M&B in edit mode, refer to the instructions on this post under "how to edit scenes" http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,57569.0.html

Since Floris is using, at least in part, the el arte de la guerre siege pack, then you're likely running into a lot of the same problems I did. Which prompted me to edit every single castle/city in the game, reverting several back to default and editing those. If you're interested in doing this yourself be prepared for a lot work, I've spent 5-6 hours a day over the past week bug squashing in these siege scenes.

Any chance you could release your zipped textures for the sieges/scenes and put it up for download? I was about to do a mass replacement of native to floris to fix the knudarr siege etc, and really dont want to lose the new castles that work if you have a working version for Floris.

Neterkun

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2011, 09:10:32 PM »
in any case  im going to work on that so  I hope to provide working castle soon ^^

Sethwick

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2011, 03:11:50 AM »
It would also be good to make it so every soldier doesn't end up stuck in the big wooden spikes when you fortify your position. If someone is going to spend hours tediously fixing castles, might want to take a look at that too. Though I do not envy you.

Caba`drin

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2011, 03:24:23 AM »
It would also be good to make it so every soldier doesn't end up stuck in the big wooden spikes when you fortify your position. If someone is going to spend hours tediously fixing castles, might want to take a look at that too. Though I do not envy you.
I can't guarantee that this is fixed, but Tempered released a new version of his entrenchment system that is in 2.4. You'll have more, interesting opportunities to dig in...new scenes, etc. I'm pretty sure he worked with AI pathfinding on them a bit.



Smarmellows

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2011, 06:20:31 AM »
Any chance you could release your zipped textures for the sieges/scenes and put it up for download? I was about to do a mass replacement of native to floris to fix the knudarr siege etc, and really dont want to lose the new castles that work if you have a working version for Floris.

Er, you mean scene files, not textures I think. I've finished them all for the most part, only run into hitches on two castles in a second play through that I want to go back and tweak. The thing is they're mostly edited versions of leandrojas's secondary walls and what not so I don't think I can "release" them without his permission. Technically his are just edited versions of the vanilla scenes, so mine are just edited edits, but still, for the scenes of his I didn't revert back it's his work in making the additional walls so I'd need to send him a PM, find the version of his files I edited from, and find somewhere to post them to (never uploaded files to the repository before, anyone can do that?), so in 5 minutes I couldn't get you a download. No telling how active Leandrojas is anymore, some of the bug report posts for things I ran into were from last year.
All that said the scenes aren't 100% bug proof, I've for the most part dealt with the AI getting stuck, falling off of walls, and replaced the scenes that were just plain broken, but I've found two hitches in two castles that I need to see about fixing. The spike obstructions in front of Sungetche trap troops though it's not too game breaking, Distar castles AI mesh on the approach is still wacky despite my best efforts, the AI doesn't seem to know how to deal with the hill near where they spawn (I moved the spawn forward to mitigate this but a few still get stuck) in addition they get stuck on the way up the hill to the castle as well. There's also spikes on the inside of the castle that block troops from clearing the inner towers, spikes in general are no bueno.

I can't remember which castle Knudarr is, if it was particularly bad, will have to look at it again.
Also, I'm not using the british castles scene mod, they were pretty sure but they didn't function well, and I'm using polished landscapes so several scene items had to be deleted, just the trees inside walls and pine trees in the desert, but I don't know what affect that will have if you don't have polished.

Dev1

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2011, 09:59:14 AM »
Rather than assume you thought of this let me suggest that you make a copy of each village and add the fortifications saving it as village21f for example.  If fortified every time the f would load otherwise the regular would load.  No need to share AI between those.

Smarmellows

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2011, 12:46:16 PM »
Just going to run my second play through with edit mode enabled the whole time, I keep running into little spots where the Ai goes all hurr durr on me and I have to correct it on the spot. Despite my best efforts a unit here or there will get hopelessly lost in some of these city sieges, he's on the AI mesh outside the wall and just stands there, no amount of shoving him around with an AI limiter gets him going again, he's gone zombie. Best way I've found to prevent this is to just not let the AI make a mistake, you MUST put ai limiters on ALL ladders, just within the edges so the Ai doesn't slowly glide off to the side, if they fell it would be a good thing because they try again, but instead the AI has a tendency of wandering just far enough off of the ladder to turn zombie outside of the AI mesh. All walls need AI limiters along them where the AI will ever be standing, especially on Khergit and Sarranid cities where it is very easy for them to just walk right over the edge and end up stuck somewhere. Archer spawn points need to be carefully pointed wherever you place them, that is the red/orange arrow that points off of the yellow, the X arrow, the archers spawn in a line in that direction and while they're not allowed to spawn in mid air and fall they will try to occupy any space possible when they spawn, so if they're clustered up in a tower you have to make sure that that line they spawn in doesn't have room for them to spawn where you don't want them to be. For instance if the X arrow was pointed at the gaps of a tower wall where archers fire, they'll go right up and over that and hang off the side of the tower, with or without limiters. The spawn points don't listen to limiters. You also have to be careful with the spawn point for the defender, spawn point 15, the archers that spawn in reinforcement waves will just hold their ground and buffet around, often times if they buffet towards the castle wall they'll hug right up against it, not knowing how to deal with this the attacking AI will just charge straight into the other side of the wall, in addition to getting everyone stuck it's making poor use of the archers.

All in all, lotta work!

Smarmellows

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Re: Changing buggy castle
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2011, 08:52:29 PM »
Been a while and I've yet to get a response from him, seems pretty inactive so I think I'll just go ahead and upload the scenes to M&B repository once I have access, all due credit is to TW and leandrojas for the scene originals and the added walls. Once I post them, my changes, as I have said, are a bug fixing pass that is not 100% bug free, (but that's better than completely broken right?), the scenes have been edited for the spawn positions, AI meshes, limiters, in some cases the number of ladders and complete roll backs to original when the original was actually better or at least not completely broken. The originals were also edited to address the single ladder choke issue that the original mod was meant for, in some cases I also completely removed the extra ladders, this is exclusive to siege tower scenes where the ladder only served to attract all Ai soldiers and bypass the much better belfry completely.
For the most part, the AI should not get stuck and completely game break, they should be able to prosecute the attack to the end, for one side or the other, there are still a few bugs I mean to address and there may yet be more I missed that I'll have to mess around with more. If you find any bugs at that point you could post them here.
Lastly, these scenes do not include the english castles mod that Floris does, just el arte de la guerra, so if you encounter bugs with those scenes then I refer you to this...
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,57569.0.html
... under the instructions on how to edit scenes, it's not too hard and instead of waiting for someone to release a fix for a scene it's surprisingly easy to fix it yourself, just takes patience if you plan to edit ALL of the scenes.

Link for download to follow... er, if that's also allowed? I suppose? By Floris? er.. well I guess I'll find out.

Oh, almost forgot to mention, I use Polished landscapes so the scenes were also edited for that, nothing added mind you, taken out, if you play polished you've likely seen trees clogging up town and castle walls, or pine trees in the desert, those have been removed.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 08:55:50 PM by Smarmellows »