Troop Info for the period

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Yeah I suppose I didn't explain that to full detail.

I wouldn't have distinctive lines, that is to say just heavy and light. I would include any variants in between, as in the case of Sassanid, this could be mail armored rider with unarmored horse, or mail armored rider with half-cata horse etc.

Same for Romans not have just Clibinarii then going to light equites etc. or Barbs having mail lords then going to just shirted lancers, as there's upgrade paths which I haven't factored into my previous commentary, which would provide for such intermediate states

 
No worries, I was just being anal to make sure my precious Sassies get some nice, reasonably numerous medium horse. :grin:
 
Reference art.
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I actually had all of those except the last one, which is beautiful.

Looks like Shumate did that one. It's easy to tell his work as he uses his face for a template. Looks like he broadened the nose to try and hide it, but the eyes and mouth give it away  :lol:

Thanks.

- hmm the mark isn't Shumate's but the face is.. odd
 
Not to talk poorly of Mr. Shumate (I adore his work and visit his portfolio regularly), but this is beyond his skill level.  (also traditionally painted. I know he used to do trad, but the style is totally different)

I have a couple more from this series, but I have no idea who the artist is, or if it's from a book.

(something tells me they're wargame miniatures box covers)

I'll go through my collection for some loose 3rd century roman pictures.  (which I haven't sent you already)

edit:  the artist is apparently Nikolas Zubkov and it comes from a series of prints.
 
I agree with you that the intricacy of the work is much more detailed than that of much of Shumate's work, but I do not believe it beyond his capacity:

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I think the effort reflected on those would carry over to a high quality traditional piece.

edit:  the artist is apparently Nikolas Zubkov and it comes from a series of prints.

Ohh, a series!
 
Well. This would be a debate about art and while I don't want to play my "artist" card, I think I may notice a few things about style, simplification, stylization, illustrative sense and other features of the works you may not see.
As illustration studies from photos, those artworks are very much valid. There is however an artistic value I see in the russian illustration which I don't see in these Shumate pieces.

Yep, the series is all about ROmans and I want every single print. :grin:

(people, if you want to support TLD, buy me prints.  :lol:)
 
Merlkir said:
Well. This would be a debate about art and while I don't want to play my "artist" card, I think I may notice a few things about style, simplification, stylization, illustrative sense and other features of the works you may not see.

Oh? You would have to entertain me as having spent much of my early years in art studies hasn't made me completely ignorant, and I can spot many flaws within the Russian piece.

Easiest of which having to do with scale and shading  :wink:

But at any rate, pointless for us to debate over it.
 
I imagine it's not your objective/interest, but I scored two books on 2nd-3rd century AD Sabaean/Yemeni civilization and warfare. Can research it for you if you want.
 
ealabor said:
Hmm, well technically the area is on the new playable map.

I guess it could be worthwhile If I ever plan to add more factions.

I might need to reneg on it. There's some okay information but a lot of it is annoyingly in that "Moon speak" where translations into Sabaean don't even have vowels. I believe it's due mroe to anal translation than actual accuracy. Tribe Hashid is written in parenthesis as (HSDM) or Sum'ay as (SM'Y).

And when it comes to troops it's fairly boring "Third world" for antiquity. So nevermind. Nothing good of it.
 
ealabor said:
Sahran said:
Regarding the Sassies, I know the wargaming books I sent don't provide for any armored infantry but I think in the fashion of other's depicting the Sassanids we should allow for some heavier foot:

Well there was some material that you sent which did have illustrations suggesting they had heavy infantry.

Your concepts are fairly precise in terms of balance, though there is one thing you haven't mentioned.. elephants.

As it stands, I think this is about the approx of what i'm intending:

Sassanids - Elephants, cataphracts (and archer variant), heavy mailed infantry making up the core of the elite units, with catas being most numerous among those. Beyond that would be some mounterd archers, foot archers, light infantry and perhaps slingers. Those would constitute perhaps 50-60% of the unit.


Palmyrene - Cataphracts and imitation legionaries constituting the core elite. Beyond that some horse archers, good foot archers, then a motley crew of various light infantry types.

All accounts praise their quality of cataphracts, which would be their strong point.

I'm taking a shot in the dark with the "imitation" legionaries, or using legionaries in name, but it seems unreasonable not to have them. Though they would not be on numerical par with traditional roman numbers.

The evidence against them comes from the incursion of Aurelian recapturing the Palmyrene provinces, suggesting that Palmyrene infantry was of poor quality, and their cavalry being superb. Though the text I read does not suggest they didn't have any, and perhaps judged the quality of their infantry on a broader scale.


Others cite a legion which attacked and looted rebelling Palmyrene cities, Gallica III iirc, as a source against. However that only accounts for 1 legion, where the area under influence of Palmyrene control at it's max would have had a considerable amount of legions at it's disposal.

And I find it absolutely silly where legions on a massive scale defected when the Gallic Empire split from Rome, and to suggest that no legions in the eastern provinces would have defected with the Palmyrene rebellion is quite unreasonable.

Just as well Palmyrene Empire was not some unknown upstart. Just a year earlier of the period of the mod Odenathus, when he was still alive, had at disposal all of the eastern legions, which he used to great effect. An established rapport with the legions, and the fact that aside from Odenathus being dead (his wife causing and son inheriting the defecting empire) , the command structure out of Palmyra which issued orders to legions was still in place.


Barbarians - Heavy mail nobles and retainers making up the elite cavalry and infantry. Beyond that, and making up the bulk of the army would be lighter spearmen, axemen, swordsmen. for the eastern barbs some horse archers and lancers.

Roman Empire - Quality infantry making up the bulk. Legionaries, and Legio Lanciarii. A very small portion of Clibinarii making up the cavalry force, as according to accounts in 250 A.D. there was a unit stationed in Moesia. The great majority of cavalry would be less armored though.

Spearmen and eastern archer auxilia.

Gallic Empire - Essentially the same roster as Rome, save no Clibinarii. I'll probably have a higher quantity of Frankish cavalry in place of Clibinarii.

Auxilia would be Foederati; spearmen and perhaps some Iberian slingers.



Regarding unit size that players would face, i'm going to make them the size of cohort strength. Might seem a little large, though there will be filler size parties to rank up.

Using a Roman "faction lord" as a template, this is the general size:

6 x Centurion
480 x legionary (120 -180 as Lanciarii)
120 x Cavalry
300 x Auxilia (probably 200x accounting for spearmen)
6 x vexillationes

So, some 900 for a faction lord size party, with roughly 200 more (including Aquilifer) for a faction leader representing first cohort strength. Obviously the player will recieve bigger morale and charisma bonuses to face such a size.

Haven't broken down the ratios for other factions yet.

OMG!Ealabor,will the faction lords really have this number of party size? :grin: It will be AWESOME!!!  :shock:
And with use of battle sizer it will rock. :smile:

Nice info of equipment and troop types for each faction by the way.

Good luck and full support!  :mrgreen:
 
One thing I want to point out about the Goths is that this is about 100 years before they were like most recordings from the Romans say.  By this I mean the period when they were using cavalry extensively or utilizing Roman arms and armors is from their revolts of the late 4th and into 5th centuries.

At the point of this mod they were not even Ostrogoth/Visigoth yet.  They also were sea raiders at this period, as seen from their viking-esque raids on Greek islands and coasts.

I say this only to emphasis that we shouldn't assume that the Greuthungi and Thervingi Goth megatribes that existed during this period were in any ways similar to those of a century later.  What can be confidently stated is that most likely they used round shields, as the Goth people were described using such back when they were on the Baltic coast and also described as using such after this period.
 
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The last picture is of the Visigoths in the foreground (infantry) and Ostrogoths in the back (cavalry).  From what I have read, it seems the Ostrogoths were the ones most renowned for their cavalry.

All of these are set in the migration period, so I am not sure how accurate it is of the time.  What can be relatively confidently said is that they used round shields, wore spangenhelms (the type with cheek guards and without nasal guards), and some wore maille.  Beyond that, some might have worn scale armor (chest pieces anyway) and on occasion it was gilded or bronze/brass in color. 

As much as I hate to say it, they resemble the Rohirrim of the LOTR, or I should say the reverse...which is not a coincidence since supposedly Tolkien based the famous charge at Pelenor on the Ostrogoth resistance against the Huns...with a better outcome.
 
Well Tolkien had to draw his inspiration from somewhere.

As far as the images being migration period, the theme can't be too far outside of the ballpark.

Thanks as it were.
 
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