Persistent World 4.5.1 - download and general discussion

The Bowman said:

That will be very useful. Thanks for the efforts.

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Waiting for carrots

I'd like to ask the cav nerfs to be removed. You made the class absolutely useless (which is great for the people who dislike cav and never played it in the first place) but an absolute disappointment for the rest of the community. There were enough clans which mainly go infantry and use horses only for mobility. You can't just take away a class from the mod, which you pretty much did as it is pointless to play now.

Archers are still as annoying and op as before. Cavalry you can at least come close to (because in order for them to kill you they have to come in range of your lance & pike which you're carrying if you're using any logic). This update will only lead to people using archers more often and the mod ending like mercenaries or native with all the archer spam.

I feel like you, Vornne, haven't played the mod properly in a while and are making the wrong decision with this update (No offense). People are talking about realism, but if we were to be realistic then a slash with the sword from horseback in full speed would kill anyone, no matter what armour, as well. And I've never seen anyone get up straight away, continuing running after getting run over by a horse either. 

This is a game, therefore meant to be balanced, not realistic. Making a class useless whilst not touching the others most certainely is not balanced.

http://gyazo.com/31ba65a16547f9daed54f0ecfea6e82f

This is the new face of warfare, instead of a 1:6 Cavalry to infantry ratio on most wars where the cavalry can screen the infantrys advance, it's now 1:20. Cavalry is only ever used now as a means to quick transportation across the map and for robbing, in wars you would see most of the people on foot, knowing that spending 27,000 for a War Horse would be money down the drain as it would be taken down by no more then probably 3 Crossbow shots / a pike. This is even worse for the Lancer class which a few (including me) prefer to the old Man at Arms class.

You've re-created WWI, for cavalry.

All this whining about the horses! Oh man. And it's not even a nerf, they should have never been so OP.

The problem is with the maps / server owners which put the prices of the horses too high now that they have native health. They should leave the default price.

Z0mbiN3 said:

All this whining about the horses! Oh man. And it's not even a nerf, they should have never been so OP.

The problem is with the maps / server owners which put the prices of the horses too high now that they have native health. They should leave the default price.

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That is not done by the server owners but by the mappers (Avenger and I - for Oasis)
And now that you mention this, Avenger and I are both lowering the prices.

All horses will get the default price except war horses, who will get Var1=60, chargers might be added (not sure about this yet) and plated chargers will never be walking on my maps for as long as I live.

This isn't native, this is PW. And it is a massive nerf for the mod. Am not talking about Native, I am not playing that.

Dekkers said:

Z0mbiN3 said:

All this whining about the horses! Oh man. And it's not even a nerf, they should have never been so OP.

The problem is with the maps / server owners which put the prices of the horses too high now that they have native health. They should leave the default price.

Click to expand...

That is not done by the server owners but by the mappers (Avenger and I - for Oasis)
And now that you mention this, Avenger and I are both lowering the prices.

All horses will get the default price except war horses, who will get Var1=60, chargers might be added (not sure about this yet) and plated chargers will never be walking on my maps for as long as I live.

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I know it's only the mappers who can lower the prices, but it's up to the server owners to decide which map is played, so they could use a map which has default prices for a while. Thank you for updating your maps tho.

Glopaxi said:

I'd like to ask the cav nerfs to be removed.

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No, that the "extra health" feature applied also to horses was an unintentional effect, and I wasn't made aware of it until months after the last release (years ago), when I realised it was probably contibuting to a lot of the complaining about lancers that also resulted in a new option to make lances breakable. The extra health feature was designed to be for the combat troops that take extra time and effort to use food, beds, doctors, and other support from their faction to invest in their current character's life to enable it to last longer, making them less likely to repeatedly discard lives in suicidal attacks, regathering weapons and armor dropped each time; it applies to all troop types in proportion to their combat effectiveness (some servers have broken the concept by always giving players double the health each respawn). On the other hand when applied to horses, they always get the full doubled amount from spawn, and it applies only to the cavalry classes, giving them a dramatic advantage compared to the approximate class balance inherited from Native, which had a lot of testing.

This balance issue was probably not recognised very well because it coincided with the start of most servers using money, class, and troop type saving perpetually in an external database: since basically every player will have and keep the best equipment and troop after a few days or weeks of playing, most balance considerations are pretty pointless. This usage of PW is not encouraged or supported, so people coming from that perspective get no sympathy from me: keep using PW 4.4 if it suits you better.

Things generally take time to settle after a balance change: people will get used to it after a while (PW has had more time with Native health horses than otherwise).

Native health with PW horses doesn't go well. You made them weak already with the slow they get when the HP falls under half health. Now also giving them the Native health whilst keeping the slow is ridiculous. PW horses currently are the weakest of the whole game I'd say.

I stay with the statement I made in my previous post. You clearly haven't played your own mod in quite some time and making changes out of assumptions can go horribly wrong, like in this case.

Choosing what version to play isn't up to me and the Server Owners are right when they say that not playing on your newest version, no matter how crap, will lead to losing new players.

You act like someone owes you something. The playerbase needs to learn to adapt.

I give criticism. Which is my right seeing that I represent the opinion of this mods oldest clan.

If you don't like the change, then you can keep playing PW 4.4, otherwise, deal with it. You have yet to provide a single argument as to why double health for horses improves the quality of gameplay in any way, whereas Vornne has explained why it is harmful and unintended.

I've been playing this mod for about 3-4years now, give criticism (and you had more than enough points to why I think it's too little health for PW horses) and am being told to shut up about it as if there's no room for discussion.

But then again, what am I thinking. Such an active cavalry player as Splintert surely knows better.

Yeah, I do, because of the reasons Vornne explained. Horses are given double HP by default, with no extra effort put in from the player vs double player health, where they have to seek the tools necessary to attain it. In addition, horses are faster than anything else giving them the ability to choose their engagements. Since they had so much health, there was almost no risk to the rider during a hit and run attack because his horse is almost impossible to kill before running away. This gives the rider too much advantage compared to other classes like archers, who have to blow through most of their ammo to kill a horse that isn't trying to run away, and infantry who can't hope to catch up or kill the horse even when pikes are used.

Reducing horse HP to regular values maintains the riders primary advantage: speed and high first strike damage, while taking away the ability to carelessly charge into a horde of pikes without any threat to themselves, and allows archers to effectively deter cavalry from pestering infantry when used correctly.

You still have yet to present a single argument. The discussion isn't being had because you have no points, other than the egotistical bull****: "I represent the opinion of this mods oldest clan". For the record, no you don't, you don't even know a thing about the "mods oldest clan".

Cavalry can't come close to archers with their current one shot ability. Troops have still more HP. People easy survive a slash in the face with a heavy bastard sword in full speed on a courser or a stab with the lance. Nice "speed and high first strike damage" advantage. Native horses do not have a slow when they come under half health which makes it for PW horses impossible to continue fighting even after they were hit only once. In the end infantry doesn't get a slow if that happens nor do they get exhausted or similar ****.

Tell me about this oldest clan. I can't wait to hear which great non-inactive American clan managed to survive for longer than us.

Cavalry has the highest damage attack in the game, the couched lance, which will one shot almost anything in the game no matter how armoured. Archers have to hit a small moving target in the head, often protected behind a shield. Their damage is only maximized when using a single-shot crossbow that is almost immobile when reloading. Infantry don't get anything that comes close to the spike damage of either troop class. Whether troops having double HP is balanced is a totally different proposition (which I will say that I don't think it is balanced for other reasons), but it is irrelevant to the horse health.

The horses in PW slow down when damaged because it is designed to prevent a rider from charging infantry, getting low horse HP, healing (not available in Native), and riding back to the fight full health. Native also doesn't have large maps where horses provide massive mobility advantage. The only time a horse gets hit once and is slow is if its a weak, cheap horse, meaning it's not supposed to be a damage soaker, or if you charge into a disadvantageous circumstance involving pikes, polearms, or close quarters. All situations in which a horse should be at a disadvantage.

Infantry doesn't slow down when hurt, but this does not matter because they are slow all the time. A wounded horse can still move as fast or only slightly slower than a ground troop.

Now you're not the first clan, but you're the longest lasting? Throw out the ego, kiddie, no one gives a **** how long you've been around because there has always been someone around longer.

Missed replying to this earlier:

The Bowman said:

Add usable invisible scene props for triggering custom scripts.

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I tried to find something alike in the scene editor, but I failed to notice anything. Does anyone know what are they called like?

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They are named custom_script_trigger_a to e.

I have made a small optional patch for 4.5 which can be used by server hosters to change the pw_buy_lance stockpile to associate with the "Thin Lance" item, which breaks when used to deal significant damage. Since to unmodified 4.5.0 clients the stockpile will appear to sell the plain "Lance" item, it was necessary to change the "Thin Lance" price from 230 to 670 to be identical, but I suggest server hosters that want to use breakable lances in their scene to reduce the price with the stockpile prop multiplier value, down to 40% or 20%, since the lances would need to be bought much more often. The patch is here and linked from the main post: just extract it into the PW_4.5 module directory on your server.

I have also found the bug that caused admin permissions from the name server not to be applied, in the game_receive_url_response module script: the fixed module has been uploaded as PW_4.5.1 for the full download and the patch, but only server hosters will have any difference and should update their dedicated server module (the name is still PW_4.5, and 4.5.0 clients are still fully compatible). The name server was also updated with some bug fixes, so it should be downloaded again (see the diffs on github for details).

Splintert: no problem with the main opinon and information parts of your posts, but please tone down the trash talking.

Personally, I'm glad to see the changes made to horses. Now cavalry gets punished for making mistakes and factions don't solely consist of MAA and ranged anymore.

So, thanks for keeping up the good work Vornne.

Glopaxi said:

Native health with PW horses doesn't go well. You made them weak already with the slow they get when the HP falls under half health. Now also giving them the Native health whilst keeping the slow is ridiculous. PW horses currently are the weakest of the whole game I'd say.

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Aren't you able to double horses health in the scripts with it being 100% compatible with clients? I could have sworn i did it before.

Vornne said:

This update has been so long in coming because I have been busier with other things in life over the last few years, and some features I had queued for this release still had problems, but I didn't have much motivation to spend the time testing and fixing them; so they have been extracted from 4.5.0, but still available to any interested scripters in the "combined_world" git branch

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Just a question for Vornne or any other developer.

Vornne's Github said:

Code:

+player_slots_to_keep_and_restore = [
+  slot_player_non_lord_troop_id,
+  slot_player_teleport_to_ship_no,
+  slot_player_last_faction_kicked_from,
+  slot_player_next_spawn_health_percent,
+  slot_player_respawn_troop_id,
+]

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Would this remove the troop lord if they were by chance the lord of there faction?