Persistent World 4.5.1 - download and general discussion

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bloodreaver said:
When the server is reset through the admin panel, ships and drawbridges break and the server needs to be completely taken down and put back up.
Yes, I was just on RCC and also reproduced it on a local server, but I still need to add debugging code to try track down the problem. Strange you say drawbridges don't work; what about teleport doors or portcullises?

I also noticed a bunch of players team killing just so they could join the outlaws, rather than training at an outlaw station; to discourage this, maybe I should make it so when a serf or peasant is outlawed, they don't change to the ruffian troop on next spawn, but stay as a peasant outlaw? Presuming that they mainly do it to access the stronger ruffian, with better default equipment.
 
Vornne said:
bloodreaver said:
When the server is reset through the admin panel, ships and drawbridges break and the server needs to be completely taken down and put back up.
Yes, I was just on RCC and also reproduced it on a local server, but I still need to add debugging code to try track down the problem. Strange you say drawbridges don't work; what about teleport doors or portcullises?

I also noticed a bunch of players team killing just so they could join the outlaws, rather than training at an outlaw station; to discourage this, maybe I should make it so when a serf or peasant is outlawed, they don't change to the ruffian troop on next spawn, but stay as a peasant outlaw? Presuming that they mainly do it to access the stronger ruffian, with better default equipment.

I'm unsure about teleport doors, didn't try it. But Portcullises didn't work either. I'm unsure if letting the time limit go down all the way would do the same, I reset 20 minutes before the timer ran out, because everyone wanted it reset then, rather than later. It'll be like it till Nobody is online, probably an hour or so till he is.

And I think people are doing that because they don't know about the Outlaw station.
 
  Hail all ! Today, I cut some woods, but alltime there is Jealous who haven't axe for woodcut and haven't, so they attacked me in back, it happened 3 times, and after the third Jealous-"randomers" I get Outlawed !
So, because I want been doctor, I need first to become comoner back, I come back to port and tried to use the train as peasant : "Not available to you", So I went to the church for the second train as peasant : " Not available to you " ... Well, after a reflection, I choose to go at the outlaw train ( because an outlaw trained is normally able to become comoners back, I think ) so the two train : " Not available to you " x___x
SO : I went to a castle for try a train as serf : " Not available to you " !!!!!!!!
Last chance : I disconected, changed character, I came back to server, and I was outlaw again !!!!!!!!!

WELL : Now I can't test well the alpha test If I can't become back a comoners !!!

Someone knows how become back Comoners after been outlawed with killing randomers commoners ??? Thanks ! Or maybe it's a bug ?
 
It's not a bug; you have to keep playing until your outlaw rating drops low enough. It was meant to discourage team killing, but it doesn't seem to be working very well, so in the next version you will only be changed to the ruffian class on death if you have a stronger troop than peasant, and the outlaw rating will need to drop to 0 before you can train as another faction: which will be 15 minutes, after doing 3 team kills - team kill adds 5, and the rating goes down by 1 every minute connected to the server. When you reconnect, the outlaw rating is restored, just like faction, troop, and gold.
 
Why add all this pointless grinding to PW? I don't play this to whack a tree with a hatchet and I don't want people winning a fight over something as stupid as skill points. You should be able to just have a set amount of skillpoints to spend when you join, set up your player and then just play. Not all people have the time to grind themselves up from serf to soldier every time.
 
HitoKiri said:
Is it possible to see my Outlaw rating point somewhere ?
It is shown in the message area when you team kill or reconnect to the server.

No update tonight folks; I've made a few fixes and changes but haven't had time to test anything. I haven't figured out the ships after map restart bug yet.
 
Although I hate to repeat myself, having seen this thread I thought I might try and get answers to some of my points from the people who actually made this version.

I love some of the new features of version 4, but I feel its lost too much of what made PWmod great. Much of the mod feels, if not overly complex, then at the least very confusing. The Wall O' Text that greets you when you log on doesn't do enough to explain how exactly people should do stuff. I don't know about you other people, but I felt the new chat system is also very annoying and the changes to it seemed more than a little pointless. If anything didn't need reform from version 3.5, it was the chat system.

This version seems not ready to be played by anything more a select group of people who want to help develop it and work out the kinks. At the moment I cant help but feel that many of the people who RP'ed well and put time into PW seem to have lost a lot of interest in PW. I myself have lost a lot of the fun and enjoyment I used to get from PW. I just don't enjoy grinding, at all. I can deal with doing it for a while, but the way version four forces people to spend the first hour doing the most monotonous and boring tasks I have found in a game simply ruins the game for me. I found myself asking random people to duel me to try and resist the urge to quit then and there. This measure did not work. I promptly left and have felt no desire to return since then. Considering the fact I used to be frankly eager to play PW, I cant help but feel that this version is a step down, at least in its current form. Feel free to tear my comments to shreds. 
 
I like the Alpha, but it has a few mistakes. First, it takes a long time to make money and get proper equipment, even though it's a RP mod, people don't wanna spend hours grinding for Man-At-Arms by chopping wood.

Secondly, there's far too few ways to make money. Woodcutting doesn't pay off at all and the mines tend to get exhausted fast, something should be done about that.
The kingdom idea is good, though people should take it more seriously, not just to get stuff.

 
OK, so now:

You have to whack a tree to make money that you spend so you can whack a tree better, then whack a tree some more until you have the money so your profession isn't whacking a tree. Then you have the money to whack people, except there's barely anyone to whack because you're not allowed to whack the people who are whacking trees.
BRILLIANT!

If I wanted to cut firewood for hours, I'd go into the yard and grab my hatchet. There's nothing roleplay about forcing people to play as a serf.
 
yeah... i havent had a pwmod craving since this version came out tbh :razz:

which is kinda sad as it does have some REALLY cool stuff - it just.. doesnt appeal to me as it is :S  i find myself sitting at my pc thinking "im bored.. what should i do?" - rather than how it has been for many months where im always doing something pwmod related XD


i think the main problems are focused around what USED to be optional, that is now mandatory - eg you HAVE to be a serf, you HAVE to do this and that &c.

ofcourse, its nice to be able to craft and do things that we can do now - but it really sucks having to do them :S
 
Scarf Ace said:
OK, so now:

You have to whack a tree to make money that you spend so you can whack a tree better, then whack a tree some more until you have the money so your profession isn't whacking a tree. Then you have the money to whack people, except there's barely anyone to whack because you're not allowed to whack the people who are whacking trees.
BRILLIANT!

If I wanted to cut firewood for hours, I'd go into the yard and grab my hatchet. There's nothing roleplay about forcing people to play as a serf.
We'll drink to that! +1
 
King of Scotland said:
Scarf Ace said:
OK, so now:

You have to whack a tree to make money that you spend so you can whack a tree better, then whack a tree some more until you have the money so your profession isn't whacking a tree. Then you have the money to whack people, except there's barely anyone to whack because you're not allowed to whack the people who are whacking trees.
BRILLIANT!

If I wanted to cut firewood for hours, I'd go into the yard and grab my hatchet. There's nothing roleplay about forcing people to play as a serf.
We'll drink to that! +1

I have to agree. Pwmod right now is nothing but endless grinding in a attempt to get money so that you can pay the robbers and taxers that parasite on you everywhere you go.

If you steal a horse in V4, you pretty much take away 15 minutes worth of work. Sure, it's  still allowed from a roleplay point of view, but it is ****ty beyond belief for the one loosing his horse.

This version is extremely vulnerable to randomers, robbers and horse thieves. In 3,5 you could pretty much just respawn, but in this version you may loose hours of hard work to some dumbnut deciding that he wants to go rampage or thinks that stealing a horse would be easier than walking.

I love the V4 oportunity, but there just isn't any Roleplay going on right now, since everyone is busy trying to make some money.
 
Vornne maybe increase money making by a decent %? if you consider that players need people to be farming resources to make weapons anyway having gold faster doesnt mean they can get the best stuff much faster surely?

about the boat spawning problem, have you considered giving each port a starting amount of boards and planks etc? then when someone wants a boat to start with it gets build in the dock. this way the server just resets the starting board stock

also a map making question... how do i make maps in this version if i cant load it up on a private local server? and will you ever have boat construction points for different sizes? like you need a large dock to make the galleon but a more common small dock for the little ships? :razz:

the little boats remind me of fishing boats, anyway that could be developed?
 
Time for wall of text - some ideas that probably won't be implemented, but maybe inspire someone to do something:

1. More P2P than P2E castle economy (closed money market)
Right now when you (as serf or peasant) sell resource/weapon to castle stockpile, you get money from nowhere. IMO castle owner should pay you, not game engine. Same if you buy resource/weapon from castle - money shouldn't vanish, but should go (100%) to castle treasury.

Only way to "create" money, should be by exporting ("destroying" or  "removing from game") resources.
Only way to "destroy" money, should be by importing goods (those that can't be crafted) or by training.
All other money transfers should be between players - pay for goods, ect.

One problem is - how to prevent serfs from flooding castles with useless resources that castle doesn't need? I see two possible solutions, but I don't know if they can be implemented:
a. automatic - resource's prices are based on formula like [(100-amount in stockpile)*basic price]
b. manual - castle owner (lord or marshal of faction) can manually set resource price

All those changes would IMO:
-create more natural money flow (player to player, rather than player to environment)
-encourage long range trade organized by factions (because only way to increase amount of money on market would be to travel with resources to very distant places)
-encourage factions to fill their armoury with weapons (right now they are usually empty), because it's the only way to retrieve money from serfs (other than robbing=taxing)
-allow robbing castle completely (with weapons and resources) - just buy resources/weapons, than take your money from chest
-allow managing goods inside castle without "vanishing" money in the process: stockpile, withdraw, than ask lord to pay difference in price
-chests are more important, as they in fact allow access to all castle resources


2. Dynamic export/import prices
No matter how hard we try while making maps, there are always shorter/easier and longer/harder road from mine to export, and players will always take easier one. Simple idea (that I don't know if is possible to implement) would help here:
Simpy set export price some 'basic price'

Now every time someone sell in this prop, increase price in every export props of the same type on the map by 1% and decrease price in this prop by [1%*total number of export prop of the same type]

This way less most used location will pay you less and less with every item you sell there, while locations that nobody uses will pay more and more (and after some time, they'll be only places that can be used).


3. My vision of troop classes and faction
I disagree with you Vornne, that making training cheaper but only for single life would make people swap it left and right - it still costs money, and changing from archer to medic and than back to archer would cost you 1500, which isn't that small (and that money is just wasted). People would still cooperate, and in opposite to current system, they'd try to stay alive, because dieing would cost more with more advanced classes. Also, grinding would be shorter, but would require more thinking (how not to die). It would also encourage people to protect valuable but defenseless troops - right now if engineer/medic/lord die, he'll simply spawn again as medic at no cost. Server population would be more dynamic. Vertical migration (between classes) would be easier, but both sided.
Right now it feels like cRPG: grind, be owned, grind, be owned, grind, be owned, own, own, own... ; while IMO it should be: grind, own(as long as you can), be owned, grind...

Now about training and joining factions: Many players join faction only to train. They disobey orders and generally piss at faction leader or cooperation. They join "system factions", but no "real factions". I think I know solution for that:
-when someone train, half of training cost goes to castle treasury.
a. If he really joined faction, lord will probably pay them for service (doing missions for him, guarding, healing, crafting, ect.)
b. If he joined just to train, then travel away to rape, burn and pillage, than lord won't pay him anything, which in the end means that they paid 2x more.
Now it creates a question: why force them to join "system faction" if they don't join "real faction"? Only way to encourage (people naturally resist any kind of  "forcing") them to "real faction", is to allow faction leader to pay them manually. For this he need some funds, that can be acquired i.e. by allowing others to train in his castle.

Now about starting equipment - because you never actually spawn as troop other than peasant/serf, changing class shouldn't change equipment at all.

I'll create spreed-sheath to show how I see classes - main difference will be adding cheapest versions of combat classes, for those who aren't patient or smart to earn for something better, yet they want to be military.

Phoenix234 said:
and will you ever have boat construction points for different sizes? like you need a large dock to make the galleon but a more common small dock for the little ships? :razz:
Its cog for ****s sake... it's like calling catapult "that wooden cannon"... :razz:
 
About equipment, woodcutting axes and pickaxes should be free or really cheap in order to make things easier and faster. And I dislike the "player-money-system" cause there's a large percentage of people who don't know anything about teamwork and such and it'd be quite difficult to organize such system.
Even though it's hard, it's still a good idea.
 
im making a map but need some help with the boats and spawns.
i made a boat prop, something like PW_Boat_C but i cant seem to move it after its placed XD
how do i place the different faction spawns ? i keep spawning in the middle of the map which is water
:sad:
 
Ok so randoming is at its peak in the mod.. mines aren't refreshing.. bridges are too easy to destroy by just anyone.. tools have run out of stock.

The world has died and there's 12+ hours before reset. Nothing to do but wait until map reset since money can't be made with sticks..... it takes the 12 hours to gain 2000g with old knife/hatchet to become a soldier in a faction.. Can't buy wood axes because bridges are broken or the tools are out of stock. xD Makes no sense. Economy is broken.

I heard a lot of unarmed serfs got randomed WITH NO RP by many people.I forgot what the guy said that announced it. After killing unarmed civilians they said they killed them because "they were in the castle they are claiming". This was witnessed by many people, including the innocent serfs that got randomed by them. Not good enough RP. Also some russians was randoming too because there's no rules.

Please make it so that commoners cannot use deadly force (their tools do 1 damage or less, like training weapons in PW 3.x) and that commoners drop nothing for Outlaws even if they are rich. That will maybe stop some of the Outlaw randoming that is happening every minute now and no one is stopping them.


Summary:

- Commoner tools should make 0-1 damage to avoid randoming at start, also Commoners should not be given ability to use weapons. But to balance this, commoners should not drop any loot after dying. Or atleast no money, ever, no matter his wealth.

- Make so that only man at arms (or engineer) can destroy bridges.

- Tools should have infinite stack in "shops".

- Mines need to have an autorefresh too, like trees. Else no one can make tools or gear until to a very limited certain point.

- People are saying admins are not allowed to enforce server rules. This has TRIPLED the amount of randoming and mindless griefing. GG?

- When hunger is added to the mess, the server dies in couple of days. Serfs don't have enough money to even buy a woodcutter axe, how could they feed themselves? No.

- With a proper map and these fixes the mod would be better. Please don't force people to rebuild bridges to enter the other side of map. No one has enough money to become engineer to repair bridges so serfs are now stuck on each side of the land.

- Cheapest Outlaw training should cost atleast 2000.


Thanks.
 
Vornne said:
Hey, I thought you were one of the players that were asking for it to be removed from v3? I couldn't be bothered adding it, since it seems faction tactics and orders being discussed in local chat when the players are grouped together would be better, and in a RP focused server it just seems like OOC chat that server admins can't keep track of very well. Are there any players with strong opinions about it one way or the other?

Also, on the subject of asking questions: what is the performance of the scene compared to other PW scenes for the previous versions? Is the name server wanted by players or server hosters at all? Is the server running smoothly with lots of players, compared to other versions? Don't forget to report any script errors (though I left some debugging code in alpha2 by mistake, which will spam the server console).

Also, I added a rough overview screenshot to the main post:
overview.jpg
As I told you through PM, I think the faction chat should exist, but should only work locally, encouraging RP but allowing private faction coordination.
 
Ser Orindell said:
Considering the fact I used to be frankly eager to play PW, I cant help but feel that this version is a step down, at least in its current form. Feel free to tear my comments to shreds.
Did you ever play PW 1, 2 or server with low or no respawn gold (the way Laszlo originally intended it), or did you only ever enjoy RCC with thousands of free respawn gold, meaning you didn't really have to use the money making parts of the mod? If I make working for gold unnecessary, the game becomes less competitive, with players just pretending to be whatever they want. The idea with the v4 money systems was not to make it a boring grind, but to make the scene seem more alive by having players compete for locations and resources; so I will probably increase the rate of gaining money from work in the next patch, and see how it goes.
Phoenix234 said:
about the boat spawning problem, have you considered giving each port a starting amount of boards and planks etc? then when someone wants a boat to start with it gets build in the dock. this way the server just resets the starting board stock
The reason I didn't add buildable ships is that they are server resource hogs; I want to make sure the rest of the game works with good performance first.
Phoenix234 said:
also a map making question... how do i make maps in this version if i cant load it up on a private local server?
Use the dedicated server package in the download section of the main page; you can run the server and client on the same computer if the scene isn't complex or you have lots of memory (the current test scene is now a little bit too complex to load server and client on my computer, with 2GB RAM, so I run the server on another computer on the LAN).
Phoenix234 said:
the little boats remind me of fishing boats, anyway that could be developed?
Probably, but not yet.
CalenLoki said:
1. More P2P than P2E castle economy (closed money market)
Right now when you (as serf or peasant) sell resource/weapon to castle stockpile, you get money from nowhere. IMO castle owner should pay you, not game engine. Same if you buy resource/weapon from castle - money shouldn't vanish, but should go (100%) to castle treasury.
Yes, I though about that, but for a start I decided to make a fixed economy, since dynamic ones are very hard to get right, and I thought players would get annoyed when it inevitably spins out of control. Something to work on later.
CalenLoki said:
3. My vision of troop classes and faction
I'll think about it more.
CalenLoki said:
-when someone train, half of training cost goes to castle treasury.
Now that seems like a very good idea :wink: .
CalenLoki said:
adding cheapest versions of combat classes
Yeah, I intended to make different levels of the combat classes, eventually.
Phoenix234 said:
i made a boat prop, something like PW_Boat_C but i cant seem to move it after its placed XD
how do i place the different faction spawns ? i keep spawning in the middle of the map which is water
Ships only work on a dedicated server (if they moved in edit mode you'd get extra sails and all sorts of other rubbish in your scene when you save) and remember: don't place anything except the hull, since the rest of the parts are spawned automatically when the mission starts. I thought faction spawns were documented, but maybe not: commoner entry points are 0 - 4, outlaws = 10 - 14,  castle 1 = 20 - 24, and so on up to 90 - 94 for castle 8.
Roikku said:
commoners should not drop any loot after dying. Or atleast no money, ever, no matter his wealth.
Already added as a server option in alpha2.
Roikku said:
- Make so that only man at arms (or engineer) can destroy bridges.
No, it doesn't take an engineer to destroy a wooden bridge. I might make bridges have more hit points though, if a planned change works.
Roikku said:
- Tools should have infinite stack in "shops".
I already added free default tools for peasants and serfs in alpha2, what's the matter with them?
Roikku said:
- Mines need to have an autorefresh too, like trees. Else no one can make tools or gear until to a very limited certain point.
That's listed in the main post. I wanted to see how it worked if players had to protect a scarce resource to be able to make weapons; but I'll probably increase mine hit points (if possible) and maybe make the mines "regrow" after 2 hours, or something. Remember, castle factions are supposed to try convince serfs or peasants to sell iron at their castle stockpile, so the factions engineers will be able to make weapons.
Roikku said:
- When hunger is added to the mess, the server dies in couple of days. Serfs don't have enough money to even buy a woodcutter axe, how could they feed themselves? No.
Now that's just flamebait, which I normally don't reply to: it's listed in the section "Obvious features I've avoided" not "Features I will add but have avoided", and also, you have little idea of how it might work, so don't get worked up about nothing.
Roikku said:
- Cheapest Outlaw training should cost atleast 2000
That might work, combined with the change that players don't get "upgraded" from a serf or peasant to a ruffian when outlawed. The intention of the outlaws faction was that certain players will want to cause chaos, no matter what, so it is supposed to be a way to make them easily recognised so other players can try avoid or deal with them. The RCC rule "no killing brigands on sight" came afterwards, and it seemed to be because players were using the class for the stats or equipment, and that reason is removed in v4.
 
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