"A Mighty Host" Any suggestions on how to deal with them?

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Nicholas Bell

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Any suggestions on how to deal with the Sarranids who have taken more than half the map and never travel with a retinue of less than 200 when on the offensive?

Background situation:  Using Floris Mod Pack, day 850.  I am playing a loyal Vaegir vassal.  Early on the Vaegirs, Swadians and Sarranids were allied and wiped out the Nords and Khergits.  The Rhodoks were marginalized and left in their small corner of the map.  This was all before I accepted being a vassal to King Yaroglek.  Soon after “never ending war” began with the Sarranids and Swadians allied against the Vaegirs.  While we have been able to hold off the Swadians (lots of give and take), the Sarranids have grown stronger and are relentless – success breeding success.  Most of their troops are level 5-7.  When their marshall comes in force he brings 1000-2000 with him, with average retinue size 300-600.

I recently had taken Dhirim from the Swadians and was awarded my first town.  I stuffed it full of everyone I could muster– over 500. A good mix of mid and upper level archers, foot and even my dismounted horse.  Have been training and holding them in my single castle.  A Sarranid “Mighty Host” descended on the town.  I have replayed the siege several times, turned down the difficulty level to lowest level possible and have lost every time.  Even sent a message to King Yaroglik to help – and he did with his “paltry” army of 350.  But common sense took hold and he kept his distance.

I eventually came to realize there was no way I could keep my single town, so I replayed it all once more but this time left with a party of 140 (my max) and headed south.  As I left I saw King Yaroglik being overwhelmed attempting to help me….

Although I am playing a “good guy” this doesn’t hold true with the enemy’s lands, and I burned over a half dozen Sarranid villages in my angry rampage (and I’m taking about me – not my avatar – being angry) which resulted in them calling a truce – merely a breather for them as they once again declared war once the truce days ticked down.

Now I am the marshall and have to deal with both the Mighty Hosts of the Sarranids and assaults from the west from the Swadians.  Even if they were out of the picture, I have no idea on a long  (or short) term solution to dealing with the Sarranid Sultanate.

This is my first time playing MBW, so I don’t know if this situation is common in Native, or a result of my poor play.  Or perhaps because of the Floris mods  troop trees.  Too late to change them now…  I am hoping I am missing something critical which might get me out of this downward spiral.  I know I could switch sides, but that is not who I am.  If necessary I will take this ride to the bottom.  But I would really prefer to wipe the Sarranids off the face of the earth.
 
well, I'm not familiar with the Floris troop trees, but if the Vaegir still have the same powerful cav they have in Native, I'd suggest rolling a raider. Put all you got in a large, mobile force of heavy assault cav. With 140 knights you should still be faster than any npc army. So attack anything weaker than yourself - caravans, peasants and villages, smaller lord parties. Learn to kite, disperse and destroy hosts piecemeal. Divide and conquer is the way to go when you're on the wrong side of assymetric warfare, and through this approach you are slowly going to erode and destroy your enemy.
 
Ludial said:
Learn to kite, disperse and destroy hosts piecemeal. Divide and conquer is the way to go when you're on the wrong side of assymetric warfare

I have seen you give this advice a few times now and i have a question: how do you get enemy lords to break away from the main army? It used to work for me just fine in the original game but it does not in Warband. The enemy lords just follow the marshal and don't stray, even if you tangle your bare ars in front of them. The only way you can take them one at a time is if someone falls a lot behind.

Am I missing something?


Ontopic:
Time and time again Swaddy Knights have proven themselves as the best cavalry in Warband. Use them, like Ludial said, make a cavalry only army and start hunting them down. Capture and imprison them if you must.

In the scenario you described (a huge army besieging your town), a huge difference will be played by the tactics skill (i dismissed the skill at first but its pure magic) and solid troops at the top of your towns garrison.
 
the best way to separate them is at night - they don't always see each other and it's easier for them to break away. And of course, if you can get the marshal, the host simply dissolves. Cut the big fat snake's head off and then you get to eat the rest at your leisure.
 
Ludial said:
the best way to separate them is at night - they don't always see each other and it's easier for them to break away.

Uhm, they follow the marshal even if they do not see him. If he does not attack you, no1 else will. Once they get the "accompanying insert silly lord name here" its like they forfeit their free will and just follow like nice doggies. 
 
...
that means I'm probably thinking along obsolete principles. One thing I would definitely try though is to attack the back of the group at night to see if the range of visibility affects how many lords join in the battle.

yep, the AI definitely has been made smarter about survival in Warband.

Though the thing to work for certain would be to pick them off while they're preparing a siege. I've seen them disperse easily in that situation.

Divide and conquer, always and forever.
 
I think the OP's error is to defend all the holdings of other lords as well. In general, when a faction gets it's ass kicked badly it will try to make peace, especially if they have multiple factions lined against them. By allowing the other Vaegir fiefs be taken, eventually the King will make peace with either the Swadians or the Sarannids, or both.

That would at least end the current horrible situation, maybe even reverse it after some time, where you will have one of them as an ally and beating the other one together.

Be a little more selfish, and try to get more fiefs for yourself.
 
The only way I know to work is if you catch them assembling - and even then it's a tightrope as to whether other enemies get sucked into the battle along with the manageable target your going for.

The trick is to stay well away from the main blob of lords and wait for the individuals as they arrive. You will need good spotting. It has been many versions since you could tempt individual lords away from the blob and generally it's only the dissolution of the campaign that breaks it.

A post above does indicate a good point though - a seige by a campaign army will be called off if the Marshall deems the odds to be too great against his force. So if you carry enough men or can enlist some help then garrison the settlement and hopefully they will call off the seige and in so doing any lords in the campaign army that have an inclination to do their own thing will bugger off making the whole significantly less than it was!
 
You can pull lords out of the giant group. It's easiest to do when they are standing still for a siege. Get really close to the edge of the group, like 2 cm away, and stand still for a while. Usually, a couple of them will start chasing you. Since you're very close to them, if one of the lords is faster than you, you'll quickly get caught by the entire enemy army, so only do this if you're fast. Then, with like 3 lords following you, run away from the main group and try to keep only one or two following you. When they are far enough from the main army, immediately attack. 

You can also fight some lords separately when the enemy army is moving long distances. All the lords with large, slow armies are too slow to keep up with the marshall when moving (if the marshall doesn't have a slow army himself). If you wait until just the right  moment, you can fight those without anyone helping.
 
I just cant understand how you got so far in the game without getting any more properties for yourself and eliminating all other factions.

Right now I am on the 300ish days of the game and I have conquered the entire map (and by "entire", I totally mean it) and wiped off all other factions but Rhodoks who I sided with. I also have a ****load of property myself (something like 5 cities, 3 villages and around 15 castles). I conquered all properties of each faction whenever a war broke out and constantly hit their moving troops until they lost all mobility and got reduced to a band of thieves.

The biggest party I had to fight was the Vaegir war party who attacked one of my cities with something like 1300 men and I had about 180 soldiers (70 of them previously positioned in the city). I defended the city and slaughtered about 500 of them before they could even penetrate the walls until they had to withdraw. When they made their move to run, Rhodok warband was already cautiously waiting around. So, I stepped out of the city and dealt with the rest with the help of my fellow commanders.

Note that in field battles, the first thing I always do is to ride my horse straight for the warlord(s) (or commanders you might say) and take them down with a nice and balanced swing of my two-handed axe. Without a commander, troops will soon get intimidated by your attacks and run away, provided you have some renown as well.

Now that the entire Calradia belongs to Rhodoks, largely thanks to my efforts, I am thinking on going rogue and reconquering it for myself.

The only advice I could think of would be raising Rhodok sharpshooters. Have about 70 of them in your army, position them on a nice hill at the beginning of each battle and you will see them raining hell upon anybody in the way. I also advise helping Rhodok villages with their problems (be it the need for cattle or training against bandits). With enough reputation with them, you will sometimes be able to recruit approximately 15 villagers at a time.

Also make use of the various comrades you find in taverns. Thanks to Jeremus, Klethi and Deshavi, for example I have 8 points in tracking, detecting, movement (not really sure about the exact skill name), healing, first aid, wound treatment, tactic and architecture (I can start attacking castle walls in 4 hours and build a siege tower in 42 hours).

Hope that helps!
 
Thanks for the input!

Ludial said:
well, I'm not familiar with the Floris troop trees, but if the Vaegir still have the same powerful cav they have in Native, I'd suggest rolling a raider. Put all you got in a large, mobile force of heavy assault cav. With 140 knights you should still be faster than any npc army. So attack anything weaker than yourself - caravans, peasants and villages, smaller lord parties. Learn to kite, disperse and destroy hosts piecemeal. Divide and conquer is the way to go when you're on the wrong side of assymetric warfare, and through this approach you are slowly going to erode and destroy your enemy.

Good idea, and I caught one 86 man unit last night but had to run quick because there were several 250+ unit hovering around - one burned one of my villages  :cry:  I think "slowly erode" is the key term here.  No way I can attempt to pick off one of the units following the marshall though - they were all 300+ .  The host moved north and quickly took Sargoth.  They roam where ever they want...

Captain_Octavius said:
I think the OP's error is to defend all the holdings of other lords as well. In general, when a faction gets it's ass kicked badly it will try to make peace, especially if they have multiple factions lined against them. By allowing the other Vaegir fiefs be taken, eventually the King will make peace with either the Swadians or the Sarannids, or both.

That would at least end the current horrible situation, maybe even reverse it after some time, where you will have one of them as an ally and beating the other one together.

Be a little more selfish, and try to get more fiefs for yourself.

I think you are on target with your assessment.  Now that I am no longer the Vaegir Marshall (we captured 2 castles and I now hold King Harlus in my prison) I think will work to defend only my few fiefs (while working on smaller enemy units) and let the chips fall where they may.  Can't be any worse than it is.  Perhaps  "one step back, two steps forward".  The Nords are resurrected and expanding, perhaps they will attract the attention if we Vaegirs step into the background a bit.

DIABOLGROTESQUE said:
I just cant understand how you got so far in the game without getting any more properties for yourself and eliminating all other factions.

Right now I am on the 300ish days of the game and I have conquered the entire map (and by "entire", I totally mean it) and wiped off all other factions but Rhodoks who I sided with. I also have a ****load of property myself (something like 5 cities, 3 villages and around 15 castles). I conquered all properties of each faction whenever a war broke out and constantly hit their moving troops until they lost all mobility and got reduced to a band of thieves.

Well, obviously I am not as good as you.  :grin:  But apart from my lack of sword-wielding abilities, our styles of play are obviously different.  As I noted, I am role-playing the "loyal vassal" - not world conqueror.  (maybe someday when I am more adept).  Also I am using Floris Mod.  I would admit that I probably would not be a Vaegir in a future game.  I find that while they are not horrible troops, they also do not excel at anything in particular either.
 
I realized later that your game was modded and do not know how much of what I wrote would be relevant. But you are right about siding with Vaegirs. Even if you take their side, you should raise an army comprised of some higher tiers.
 
It's easy enough to beat 10-1 odds when defending a siege with a bunch of top tier infantry (especially nords). After that you attack them full out because all their lords are still running around with 50 recruits
 
In my last game I started off with the Sarranids. They had taken a couple of the Rhodoks Castles and Dhrim. Soon after that though, the Nords powerhoused across the map, taking Dhrim, Reyvadin, Rivacheg, Curaw, Khudan and a couple of Vaegir and Swadian Castles, before declaring war on the Sarranids.

At this point I thought "You know what? Sultan Hakim has done NOTHING for me!" I didn't even have a fief, as the castle that ruled over my village had been taken a couple of in game weeks earlier, and I was having to depend on a Tannery in Shariz and trading routes (which at this point went straight into Nord territory)! I revoked my oath to Hakim, and went over and joined the Kingdom of Nords! When I ended my game, I owned Veluca and Azgad, had a party size of 91, and around 80-100 troops stationed at Veluca!

I've never been good at raising BIG parties, but I found with 91 top level troops in my party mainly consisting of cavalry from ALL the factions that have said units, and a lot of Rhodok Sharpshooters and Sarranid Master Archers, I could take out a party a LOT larger than mine!
 
If you can't get them to separate by baiting them or by waiting for them to run off homewards, there is a slightly cheap trick you can utilize as marshal. Gather your own army, advance straight at the enemy horde. Wait for their armies to attack your armies, but don't get drawn in! Once the strongest enemy forces are engaged with the lords you brought along, chase down the weaker lords and wipe them out before they can join the main force. If you do it correctly (an all cav army is great at this) you should nail quite a few annoying armies, and your allies will almost certainly retreat and restart the battle, allowing you to rinse and repeat.
 
If you play at the easiest settings, you should hold enormous odds at the walls when wielding some 2H-Weapon.
Had Vaegirs attack me with 1000 Today while the whole crowd was feasting in that far-out town in the Desert (is it called Bariyye?).
Went to the besieged castle and lived trough the assault. Boyar Vlan lifts the Siege while i "stay here for some time" and moves the Vaegir Army towards the next castle (with way weaker garrison in it). I travel after their armie (not without defeating the unlucky Boyars Khavel and Nelag who answered their marshals call and tried to catch up to the Vaegir Force), enter the castle, wait till their tower is ready. and again kill about 200 Vaegirs at the walls.
I actually was pretty lucky that both castle needed siege towers, so me and my companions (Matheld and Alayen 21 already, which helped a lot when they guarded my side) where fully healed for both battles.

Dont let their armie rally at one point, especially if their Lords field lots of high tier troops. Always scout around the enemy force and pick out every Lord separating from the mob.
Sometimes it even works that when you go close to an enemy force, their Lords will follow you. Flee a bit, so that only the faster (=weaker trooped) Lords are in battle reach.
Ah yeah and only Cavalry helps a lot for the maneuvering as well as the fights in the open field, while you should have some Archers/Crossbowmen ready to defend settlements.

This we can actually count as "strategic" while the upper method is kinda exploiting, but nonetheless effective :wink:

 
Aure said:
Ludial said:
the best way to separate them is at night - they don't always see each other and it's easier for them to break away.

Uhm, they follow the marshal even if they do not see him. If he does not attack you, no1 else will. Once they get the "accompanying insert silly lord name here" its like they forfeit their free will and just follow like nice doggies.

I've just caught the main Rhodok host sieging my castle, and as I turned up they seemed to have "business elsewhere" and made off, but the two rearmost lords turned and attacked me, only to be destroyed, of course. Maybe it's the different speeds, maybe it was the line of sight over the hills and trees, but those two definitely made for me while the rest of the army was heading out. Maybe because they were all spread out to siege and so some saw me and others did not?
 
lazlo said:
Aure said:
Ludial said:
the best way to separate them is at night - they don't always see each other and it's easier for them to break away.

Uhm, they follow the marshal even if they do not see him. If he does not attack you, no1 else will. Once they get the "accompanying insert silly lord name here" its like they forfeit their free will and just follow like nice doggies.

I've just caught the main Rhodok host sieging my castle, and as I turned up they seemed to have "business elsewhere" and made off, but the two rearmost lords turned and attacked me, only to be destroyed, of course. Maybe it's the different speeds, maybe it was the line of sight over the hills and trees, but those two definitely made for me while the rest of the army was heading out. Maybe because they were all spread out to siege and so some saw me and others did not?
spotting skill plays a big role here. yes, this way some see you and some don't
 
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