Nations Cup 2011: Question & Suggestion

Outlawed said:

I propose that when EU clans fight NA clans, two matches are done with the server being on the EU continent first then on the NA continent second. The winner would be the team with the most wins in total. This way both teams will have to deal with high ping for equal amounts of rounds.

Tyranny of the minority?
Are you serious? This is a Nations Cup for Warband and you are already making it unfair for the North American community which is total crap in my opinion.

If you're doing a European team vs another then its totally logical to have a round or two on European grounds, but why force this on North American servers? Just because the European player base is larger than the North American one does NOT give you ground to create unfair conditions for European teams as they face the United States and Canada.

Its just utter nonsense, really.

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Well the fact is that on the nations cup I ,the US players had a big advantage against most of the teams , due Better connection . Infact While 5 of the 8 US players had a ping around 60-80 on the Eu  servers even sometimes higher than  some  teams players , like Turkey etc  , on the US server instead  EU players had all ping from 120 to 150 while the US players had ping from 10 to 40  .  and thats a big advantage for the US players that obviusly  their connection isnt comparable with most of the EU's players. We  didnt allow to play on US server because of this big advantaage that the US players will have , and also mostly because there where thousands of complains by the EU players from this fact on the NC 1 , and many players asked  I think if we allow to play on US servers too , it will cause  many complains as well . But We are thinking on  it , We'll see  maybe a poll should decide this.

Urist said:

Anyway, this is probably just a question of lobbyism, with 1 nation 1 country teams like Italy on one side and language teams like my former GER+SWI+AUT team on the other. So, whatever.

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...Be carful what you do or we will be forced to use our powerful armies from "San Marino" and "Vatican City"...

ciauz^^,
Jab

Lord Willy said:

Well the fact is that on the nations cup I ,the US players had a big advantage against most of the teams , due Better connection . Infact While 5 of the 8 US players had a ping around 60-80 on the Eu  servers even sometimes higher than  some  teams players , like Turkey etc  , on the US server instead  EU players had all ping from 120 to 150 while the US players had ping from 10 to 40  .  and thats a big advantage for the US players that obviusly  their connection isnt comparable with most of the EU's players. We  didnt allow to play on US server because of this big advantaage that the US players will have , and also mostly because there where thousands of complains by the EU players from this fact on the NC 1 , and many players asked  I think if we allow to play on US servers too , it will cause  many complains as well . But We are thinking on  it , We'll see  maybe a poll should decide this.

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That's a fair concern, but I still think you should consider one more aspect:
80 ping to someone who constantly gets 30 and 20 ping on home-ground servers will still throw you off.
Also, 90 ping will apply to East Coast US/Canada players. Us on the West Coast have 150 stable ping on most European servers. Its playable depending on the server, but in no way will we be even close to our potential on home ground. Canadian players for example will have really bad ping on most if not all European servers.

Please consider this, NA will probably only have 2 teams so its not really that big of change seeing that our chances aren't, numerically at least, that good.

Outlawed said:

Lord Willy said:

Well the fact is that on the nations cup I ,the US players had a big advantage against most of the teams , due Better connection . Infact While 5 of the 8 US players had a ping around 60-80 on the Eu  servers even sometimes higher than  some  teams players , like Turkey etc  , on the US server instead  EU players had all ping from 120 to 150 while the US players had ping from 10 to 40  .  and thats a big advantage for the US players that obviusly  their connection isnt comparable with most of the EU's players. We  didnt allow to play on US server because of this big advantaage that the US players will have , and also mostly because there where thousands of complains by the EU players from this fact on the NC 1 , and many players asked  I think if we allow to play on US servers too , it will cause  many complains as well . But We are thinking on  it , We'll see  maybe a poll should decide this.

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That's a fair concern, but I still think you should consider one more aspect:
80 ping to someone who constantly gets 30 and 20 ping on home-ground servers will still throw you off.
Also, 90 ping will apply to East Coast US/Canada players. Us on the West Coast have 150 stable ping on most European servers. Its playable depending on the server, but in no way will we be even close to our potential on home ground. Canadian players for example will have really bad ping on most if not all European servers.

Please consider this, NA will probably only have 2 teams so its not really that big of change seeing that our chances aren't, numerically at least, that good.

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Yes I Understand . We'll talk soon , and we'll let you know soon

I'd prefer to change the name of the tournament in "europeand nations cup" rather than having to play against NA teams: a match where you spend 10 rounds trying to take less damage as possible in a 150 ping enviroment are only frustrating, especially if you take into account that NA teams usually have slighty better ping in EU rather than EU in NA servers.

Astinus said:

I'd prefer to change the name of the tournament in "europeand nations cup" rather than having to play against NA teams: a match where you spend 10 rounds trying to take less damage as possible in a 150 ping enviroment are only frustrating, especially if you take into account that NA teams usually have slighty better ping in EU rather than EU in NA servers.

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Ping play is not hard, I play quite often on American servers and generally get a decent score ask PRT members to clarify that. If Americans are willing to play with thing or even if some European teams are willing to play with ping on American servers if agreed upon, then let them they know the disadvantages and the advantages.

Astinus said:

I'd prefer to change the name of the tournament in "europeand nations cup" rather than having to play against NA teams: a match where you spend 10 rounds trying to take less damage as possible in a 150 ping enviroment are only frustrating, especially if you take into account that NA teams usually have slighty better ping in EU rather than EU in NA servers.

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There will only be 2 NA teams, so its not really that big of a deal if you let us do half on our side.

Well, I'm glad to see it all started well.

First of all, I'm not sure if it was made clear in the rules topic that the rules aren't final yet. In fact, they're far from it. We understood that there most likely would be objections to at least a couple of the rules suggested in the other topic, but we've chosen to post the ones that we thought most players would agree on.

So far the only rule that has met a lot of opposition is the one regarding multi-nationality teams. Don't get me wrong here, because I see your point, but it still saddens me to see that it's been met with so much criticism within one day of the topic being posted. What we were hoping to see was simply more teams, and while the rule might have made it look like we would plug our ears and go "La, la, la, la" to every nation stating they couldn't find enough players, our intention was to say; Hey, just see if you're able to get 12 decent players together, and if you can't we'll sort it out another way.

Also, about 8 vs 8 being the minimum... Well, as much as I agree with the ones saying that 12 vs 12 would provide more interesting matches, it's simply an unrealistic suggestion. Apart from the largest countries out there, we wouldn't really see that many other teams and it just wouldn't be a tournament worthy of the name of "Nations Cup."

We played last NC2010 in a format 8х8. It doesn't give a lot of interest. It is not enough players.

NeuD.ef said:

We played last NC2010 in a format 8х8. It doesn't give a lot of interest. It is not enough players.

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You say, the team from the nation with the biggest number of players, the judgement is biased.

But games with 8x8 players is kinda a game of skillz. While results of the games with minimum 12x12 players depend more on tactics, rather then skill. That's why it's more 'pro'.

The more players the more teamwork means, the less players the more skill means.

common you're just rehashing pages 17-18 of http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,116953.225.html

Lord Willy said:

still with 30 ping higher than your

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yeah you had  30 - 20 of difference with had 130 this is  why is  unfair ... there are not "but" "if "or "maybe",  the  Difference its obvious . I hope Who ever will organize the next Cup as i said will make it only for continents, Lets close this discussion Here , its not your fault after all .

Thanks

Willy

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I too agree that whoever organizes the next 'Nations Cup' should make it only for continents [continent] and should be named for it. Just add the word European and promote it as such.

I also completely disagree with the "tyranny of the minority" phrase used as an excuse to keep the contest Euro-centric. In a hypothetical group with 4 teams (3 European and 1 North American) who play each other at least once (matches of 20 rounds (10 & 10)). A European team will play in a North American server 16% of their matches. As opposed to 50% for the American team. If the group is larger (NC2010), the European percentage falls while the North American stays the same!

If having to play <16% of your matches away is called "tyranny of the minority" while the minority plays 50%, I can't imagine what hyperbolic phrase you'd come up with if the percentages were equal?

"Tyranny of minority" means more like that NA teams have an unfair advantage. The reason is quite simple as NA teams will play all of their matches with 50/50 ping advantage/disadvantage, but EU teams will play only 1-2 matche. So in the end NA teams are much more experienced with ping battles as EU teams have to engage in something completely new.

Don't know how good solution is to force NA teams to play only in EU servers. Rather name the Cup as Eu Naitons Cup imo. Warband isn't something that can be fairly played with huge ping differences and as such ping battles doesn't make much sense.

@Ukraine + Russian issue

I think the Ukrainians should be atleast let to try to form a team. It really doesn't matter if they are "kids" or not as it matters much more if they can participate as a own team. If they really can't form a team before the deadline comes close (week before deadline maybe) ukrainians could join russians. It really doesn't make much sense to start debating about joining as there has been only couple of funny days to form teams. If the "kids" really can form a ukrainian team then you don't have any right to deny them that.

@Match sizes

It's quite early to start debating about that too. Propably when most of the team captains and captains are elected we can see if we can raise player amounts for matches. That  can't be done if some teams don't have enough players.

@Max team members

Why the limit is 14 if battle size is 8v8? I had quite much trouble even with 16 players. I really would like if the max members amount would be quite high like 20 players. 14 is just too few.

How has the NA team gotten itself the tag 'NA teams are much more experienced with ping battles'?
Sounds like mumbo-jumbo to me. As Fort pointed out, most EU teams will have good ping in almost all of their matches, whilst we have to suffer a 1/2 ratio.

You don't get his point. American teams will almost play all their games with the ping difference(1 map high ping/one map low ping). They will get used to that soonish and develop strategies. For the European teams the high ping issue will be an exception and that is their disadvantage in an oversea match. That's why I'd rather have a European Nations Cup.

NeuD.ef said:

We played last NC2010 in a format 8х8. It doesn't give a lot of interest. It is not enough players.

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Not enough for you maybe, we barely brought up 8 players to the matches because of the loss of interest and time. We should actually make a poll to see how many "active" players are here that can put up a challenge nation by nation. Then we'll see the majority of active player amount to whether agree on 8v8 or 12v12. But I'm telling you, constantly shown up events need time to be spared and that is something that everyone doesnt have.

--->>> 12v12 or more if teams confirm.<<<----
it's a better for NC

If the country can't collect 12 players let unites with other such command.

Russia
Germany
England
Sweden
Netherlands
Poland
Czech
Belgium
Italy
Turkey
Finland

are capable to expose teams more than 16 players.

NeuD.ef said:

--->>> 12v12 or more if teams confirm.<<<----
it's a better for NC

If the country can't collect 12 players let unites with other such command.

Russia
Germany
England
Sweden
Netherlands
Poland
Czech
Belgium
Italy
Turkey
Finland

are capable to expose teams more than 16 players.

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Last time Finland had troubles even getting 8 players to the matches, we played our last games 5vs7 or so. On behalf of Finland I'd recommend 8vs8, or at maximum 10vs10 but 12vs12 is a too much. Also I'm not a fan of uniting teams and countries since it would ruin the whole purpose and concept of a Nation cup.

Odd. As i know that Perkele is a pretty big Finish only clan. Also, I know we have a couple of finns in our clan, I already directed them to apply for your team.