Shield bosses and size

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I have two issues here.  First, a shield boss is intended to cup your hand; if a shield has a boss, then you can be pretty sure that there are no arm straps.  Shields with bosses, including the Roman and Nordic shields, are held in the hand by a single grip going across the inside of the boss.  The boss is, of course, hollow, and that's where your fingers go.  I am very, very impressed by the level of research that went into this game (what other game even has a glaive?), and this is really the only major error that I can see in the arms and armour.

The other issue is the size of the Nordic shield.  Historically, Viking shields were full body shields roughly a yard in diameter.  I own an accurate replica of one of the shields found in the Gokstad burial ship, and if I crouch I am completely and totally covered. The Vikings, like the Romans, were known for their shield wall.  The small shield we have in game isn't very Nordic.  Speaking of which, might we get the classic Viking paint job for the shield, with the four sections of white and red opposing?
 
The Vikings used a shield wall? I thought that was the saxons. I always figured the vikings would prefer more mobile and individual-oriented warfare during their raids.
 
ArabArcher35 said:
The Vikings used a shield wall? I thought that was the saxons. I always figured the vikings would prefer more mobile and individual-oriented warfare during their raids.

yeah, just in and out with the hope someone tries to stop them cause they liked killing everything that gets in there way.

and also not every gang of viking had the same equipment. i think you need to check your sources.
 
Standard stuff a viking had. Either a spear, one-handed axe, or in cases of nobility and rich warriors, a sword. Occasionally, archers might come, but it really didn't happen too often. They always had a shield, and they usually wore a metal skullcap. Some nobility might wear maille shirts, but it was a rare occurance. That's pretty much it. There was really no "uniform", they used what was effective, and a shield wall is not effective when raiding monestaries. Most raids only had around 50 people in them, and they had to divide their time in looting, raping, and pillaging. There was almost no cohesion, besides all getting off at once.
 
Although the word "Viking" means "raider," today we use the word to indicate Norse, Scandinavian, Finnish, Danish, Swedish, and other countries of the time period.  They did a lot more than simply raid, you know.  They fought cohesive battles, too.  But most of them never fought at all; again, although the word taken literally should only apply to the raiders, today it is used to refer to the entire culture.

Early Saecsons and Vikings were nearly indistinguishable from each other when in battle in appearance, arms and armour, languages, and tactics.  Both used the shield wall.  Both favored the large round shield (again, about a yard in diameter), similar swords and axes, mail war shirts when they could get them, and some sort of spangenhelm or something similar.  Obviously they were not uniform, but there were common characteristics.  About the shields, you are most definitely wrong.  I can find no evidence of small round shields with bosses such as used in Mount and Blade and movies like King Arthur having actually been used.  I've been looking for a long time.  The closest I can come is the Scottish targe, which does not have a boss.  All of the real Viking and Saecson shields which I have seen or heard of were at least three feet across.

You don't seem to know a lot about Vikings.  The monastery raider, while they certainly did exist, is a stereotype.  But this is really, really not the point of my post.  You've done a very good job of derailing it.  My point is that the shields are quite wrong.  There's no getting around it, both with incorrect method of bearing (arm straps instead of boss grip) and very small size (it's about half of what it should be).

shield15.jpg

 
I'm not sure if this should go in the Suggestions forum or the Sages' Guild.  Meh, not for me to decide anyways.

On topic, you're completely right.  I brought up the point of centre boss vs round shields several times in the past, but I was mostly dimissed.  A centre-boss and round shield have completely different uses and purposes.  I wouldn't recommend a strapped-round for cover from archers: it's a melee-fighter's shield.  A centre-boss, due to it's position at the end of the arm rather than strapped in the middle, is too slow to be very effective at the size of a round-shield so you have two options:  you can either make it big enough that it becomes sufficient for arrow protection AS WELL as becoming a major obstacle for your opponent (a centre boss), or you can make it small enough that it can again be used as an effective dynamic melee shield (a buckler).  The Norse, of course, opted for the first method, while later-period fighting manuals like i33 display the latter.

Strapped round shields, in my experience, tend to vary between the size of the Norse shield in the game and the Scottish targe, whereas centre-boss shields tend to be on either extreme.

I've also never seen anyone use a round shield like they're used in-game.  With a round shield, you need to ACTIVELY attack incoming blows with the edge of the shield.  Everyone I know or have ever heard of holds the round shield at a 45-90° angle to the enemy.

On a tangientiary note, many SCA fighters in An Tir (the Pacific North-West / West Coast) are switching to using a SQUARE shield, about the size of a standard round shield.  You hold it on a canter like a heater so that the top front point protects your head without obscuring your vision, but instead of "dipping" and passively blocking leg shots, you thrust the front bottom point into the oncoming shot like you would with a round shield.  Combat technology never stops developping. :smile:

Just for kicks, some random shield pics I've made up for the boards:
shields.png


A heater in guard position.


A strapped round (18" Targe)


Agressively blocking high and low



Using my 18" round as a centre-boss (since I don't have one)


I block by throwing it at my opponent


And then attack from any side I choose


Now imagine if I did that to you with a 32" centre-boss.
 
An4Sh said:
Why do you hold the sword behind your neck while blocking?
Last time he posted those pics, the general idea was that it was the most efficient under SCA rules.  That was a while ago, so I could be wrong.  My stance has the sword either behind me in a tailguard or ready to stab directly behind the shield.
 
Society for Creative Anacronism is great, but not quite historically accurate.  I would rather be a part of Association for Renaissance Martial Arts, which has also moved into the medieval in recent years.
 
Benny Moore said:
Society for Creative Anacronism is great, but not quite historically accurate.  I would rather be a part of Association for Renaissance Martial Arts, which has also moved into the medieval in recent years.
Indeed, which is why I am an ARMA member rather than in the SCA.

Edit:  SCA is a LOT of fun, and I will certainly participate in Pennsic at some point during my next four years.  Its a different experience, both with advantages and disadvantages.  There was a discussion on it in the Historical Debate board, under the thread title "for those of us who do..."
 
Yes, I do not look down at them as some practicioners do; I think they're a great organization, and definitely a lot of fun.  But it's just not for me, although I'd like to see a few videos of their battles sometime.
 
Personally it would make more sense to me if you hold the larger round shield (bossed one, gokstad type etc.) like you hold the targe. Since you only have a single handle it is easy to turn the shield by thrusting your weapon or shield into it. This is quite harder to achieve if you hold the shield in the targe way, also allowing you to strike and push with the edge of the shield. Saga's tell of techniques in which you thrust your shield into your opponents, rotate it to his sword arm side, then apply pressure. This removes his ability to strike (providing the shield is of sufficient size) while you still maintain the ability to do so, thrusting for example.

Eogan said:
I'm not sure if this should go in the Suggestions forum or the Sages' Guild.  Meh, not for me to decide anyways.

On topic, you're completely right.  I brought up the point of centre boss vs round shields several times in the past, but I was mostly dimissed.  A centre-boss and round shield have completely different uses and purposes.  I wouldn't recommend a strapped-round for cover from archers: it's a melee-fighter's shield.  A centre-boss, due to it's position at the end of the arm rather than strapped in the middle, is too slow to be very effective at the size of a round-shield so you have two options:  you can either make it big enough that it becomes sufficient for arrow protection AS WELL as becoming a major obstacle for your opponent (a centre boss), or you can make it small enough that it can again be used as an effective dynamic melee shield (a buckler).  The Norse, of course, opted for the first method, while later-period fighting manuals like i33 display the latter.

Strapped round shields, in my experience, tend to vary between the size of the Norse shield in the game and the Scottish targe, whereas centre-boss shields tend to be on either extreme.

I've also never seen anyone use a round shield like they're used in-game.  With a round shield, you need to ACTIVELY attack incoming blows with the edge of the shield.  Everyone I know or have ever heard of holds the round shield at a 45-90° angle to the enemy.

On a tangientiary note, many SCA fighters in An Tir (the Pacific North-West / West Coast) are switching to using a SQUARE shield, about the size of a standard round shield.  You hold it on a canter like a heater so that the top front point protects your head without obscuring your vision, but instead of "dipping" and passively blocking leg shots, you thrust the front bottom point into the oncoming shot like you would with a round shield.  Combat technology never stops developping. :smile:
 
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