Historical Discussion

Hengwulf said:

Thanks all, I can advise Denmark to everyone. It is expensive, but a lot to see.

Click to expand...

If you feel Denmark is expensive, don't go to Norway!

When i was in Denmark earlier this summer, I was shocked by the prices! Especially the booze! haha

Anyways, nice pictures! Makes me sad i missed the reenactment event close to me..

Leifr Eiríksson said:

Here's a nice article detailing the Danish Conquest (1000 years roughly to the day!) of England. There's some great discussion here as to why Anglo-Dane history is largely forgotten (for the masses) and the consequential effect of the Normans being terrible conquerors. 

Click to expand...

The second part was put up earlier this month.

Let's talk about accurate historical fighting here, now that it has come to my knowledge that some people believe a longsword weighs... 20lbs.

As a student of the blacksmithing and medieval combat arts, I find it a bit appalling and would like to correct this misbelief. (To me it's like blasphemy, heh.)
An european longsword for example, can weigh from 1,6kg to 2,4 roughly (Correct me if I am wrong) Depending on the length and thickness of the blade (And how broad it is.)

As such, the speed of swings (I like it slow like in vikingr, basicly because it's preferrable to the native mindless spamming and even my brain has a while to register what is happening in the game as an off topic statement) was actually -fast- because in real combat, your aim was to finnish your opponent quickly by striking once or twice and then move on to the next opponent. Hollywood likes to make people believe it was all this fancy stuff of spinning around and fencing for hours. Reality of the matter, is in my own opinion, alot more poetic and beautiful... if you think about it.

Anyway, as I'm not sure if this is really the right place for this stuff, I'll keep it short, and to support the above statements, here's some stuff on the subject that I'd recommend people to read. and even a video which I approve of. Knock yourselves out.

http://www.thearma.org/essays/weights.htm
A couple of very good facts above.

VERY good video on combat You can see the two fellas use their weapons quite fast if you watch this

ps: This -is- an invite for discussion on the subject!

It is one way to fight, but wouldn't people learn to fight more in a unit than individual combat?

Slytacular said:

It is one way to fight, but wouldn't people learn to fight more in a unit than individual combat?

Click to expand...

I believe it would have been the emphasis of a rank soldier's training. But everyone surely would have learned to fight as individuals aswell. Both have similar basics I've learned.

How believable would a Stratheclyde clan be using the Goidil faction?

Jerrod_Dagorson said:

Slytacular said:

It is one way to fight, but wouldn't people learn to fight more in a unit than individual combat?

Click to expand...

But everyone surely would have learned to fight as individuals aswell. Both have similar basics I've learned.

Click to expand...

Absolutely. You need to be conditioned to the horrors of the shieldwall, to have the discipline & nerve to hold it, but also able to step up and fight an opponent one-on-one if needs be (whether to prove yourself, settle an issue, defend yourself in the eyes of the law and so on). It's not a case of you either train for the shieldwall (and other formations) or train to fight individually, they'd learn both and from a young age. At one point I personally spent 3 out of 5 weekday nights learning several different weapons/martial arts - I had Italian rapier & sidesword on Wednesdays, Sports Fencing on Thursdays & training with my local group from Regia Anglorum on Fridays - didn't have any problems switching between them and that was with 2 hours for each on their relevant nights. I'm sure someone who intends to join a crew or is a part of a retinue would have no difficulty finding the time to train individually and with the rest of the crew/retinue, may even have been compulsory.

Those lads are rather tending towards windmilling which has always struck me as rather dubious.
You'll never get enough force behind a blow to do any damage fighting like that.
  Fighting is an art. Open your oponent's guard up with feignts and parries then go for an attack which will criple or kill.

Aethel said:

How believable would a Stratheclyde clan be using the Goidil faction?

Click to expand...

Not very, considering that before 1066 (roughly the year this Mod is set in) the Kingdom of Strathclyde was conquered by the Kingdom of Alba. This is ofcourse, my answer, is you question was rather; "How believable would it be for a clan to represent the Kingdom of Strathclyde using the Goídil faction?".

If your question is more rather can a clan represent well any Brythonic culture at the time of the mod using Goídil faction? My answer would still be not very believable at all. The Goídil faction only really represents (in terms of area) Ireland, Isle of Mann and the Western Isles, perhaps too the Northern Isles.

I think they'd be a decent fit for a Cumbrian or Welsh clan aesthetically and in terms of fighting style, but personally I can't look past the language issue.

I disagree hugely with the aesthetically part, but fully agree that I can't look past the fact that their languages are utterly different, as is their ethnicity and culture.

The depictions I've seen don't make them look *that* different, but now would be a good time to bring out the pictures and the links and the heavy history stuff.

Right, makes sense. Thanks.
I suppose I've just been confused on how different they would be aesthetically.

hrotha said:

The depictions I've seen don't make them look *that* different, but now would be a good time to bring out the pictures and the links and the heavy history stuff.

Click to expand...

The men of Alt Clut (Ystrad Clut) being compared the Gaels is like comparing the Roman Empire with the Holy Roman Empire.
Joking aside, Strathclyde being the last of the buffer kingdoms/states that held land between the Romans and Picts/Caledonians would mean that they'd be related to the Welsh, Bretons and Cornish if anything. Those being a completely different "Celtic" culture from the Gaels, and neither truly being Celtic if anything Celtish would be more correct, though that sounds stupid. The first people to be called Celts being in Northern Greece - and the only place in Britain to have Celtic or Gallic influence was the South-East of England. The rest having either none or next to no evidence of previous migration.

Went off-topic there for a bit.
In other words; A Brythonic "Clan" or "Tribe" using the Gaelic faction would be quite ridiculous in terms of clothing/equipment and fighting styles.

I know Strat Clut was Brythonic, not Goidelic - part of my homework for the Brunanburh event was doing research on Old Welsh, and on specifically Cumbric dialectal traits, for the public host from Strathclyde. But just because Britons and Gaels weren't particularly closely related in ethnic or linguistic terms that doesn't necessarily mean there were no points of convergence thanks to centuries of contact. The few depictions of Víkingr-era Britons I've seen aren't that different from contemporary Gaels, which is why I asked for moar pictures, and the fighting style of the Welsh has been discussed in this forum before, with many similarities (and, of course, differences) being pointed out, particularly the emphasis on lightly-armoured missile infantry. Here it is:
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,255661.msg6137682.html#msg6137682

Note the way Morcant describes the clothing fits Víkingr's Goídil faction reasonably well.

So no, I don't think it would be like comparing the Roman Empire with the Holy Roman Empire. More like comparing the Germans to the Bohemians in the High Middle Ages.

Take into account Víkingr factions are largely catch-all abstractions. Are the Norðmenn a perfect fit for the Chasa Yuloin, who represent Pomeranian (Slavic) pirates? Obviously not, but it's the closest thing, and not an entirely unreasonable match. If someone absolutely wanted to start a Brythonic clan because that's what really interests them, I'd advise them to use the Goídil, point out the many ways it doesn't work and leave it up to them.

What would be the best way to portray "Norse-Gaels" from the Inner Hebrides? Use the Goidil faction?

I understand that the Outer Hebrides would have more Old Norse speakers, but what about the Inner Hebrides?
Does it depend on the island? The Isle of Skye, for example: "all pre-Norse placenames seem to have been obliterated by the Scandinavian settlers."
However, when looking at other islands, they seem less affected.

Let's use an example scenario:
A group of Norse (Norwegian if that distinction matters) settlers arrive on the Isle of Skye.
Now it's been a few generations; What would those descendants, if still living on Skye, speak?

What about a group of native Gaelic(?) people already living in the Inner Hebrides who have lived under & around Norse settlers for a few generations?

Use the Goídil faction.

Take my clan for example: Fir Áraig then further taking my character/Víkingr-alter-ego, Ualraig in Dúr. But, by example I mean by a historical example, in that the clan and character are as historically accurate as possible.

First things first, the history of northern Scotland, infact Scotland North of the Central Belt, is really very complicated and not all the facts are known or agreed upon. What I should start is telling you about the Gaelicization of Scotland. Many people, wrongly, think Scotland, or Pictland at that time was invaded and conquered by Gaels - this is incorrect. Pictland, or the Kingdom of Alba was never Gaelified (for want of a better word) by means of warfare. How this actually came about was that when Áed mac Cináeda (son of Kenneth mac Alpin) was (assumed) assassinated by a Gaelic nobleman called Giric. his son Constantín was sent to Ireland at a young age and was thus Gaelified. Upon returning to Scotland to claim back his throne, he was fully Irish in fashion, custom and language and so when he took the throne back he surrounded himself with Irish nobles and swapped Pictish/Brythonic Bishops/Churchmen for Irish ones.

This was soon followed by a mass Gaelicization of the Pictish/people of Alba/Scotland. This gave rise to the idea, or myth, that the Picts simpley disapeared, when in fact they stayed exactly where they were, but just spoke a different language now - Gaelic.

Now back to Fir Áraig, which is a wandering warband, travelling the Northern Isles, Western Isles, Ireland and around the Irish Sea, it's member are very diverse as a result. it's member are then Irish (using Irish, as to not confuse people about Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic) speaking men of Alba, Norse from the Northern Isles, Norse-Gaels from the Western Isles and native Irish from Ireland.

Now for Ualraig in Dúr. He is a man from the modern area of Easter Ross-Shire (my real life home), outside the modern Dingwall. Dingwall was founded by the Vikings and was called Tingvall (Meeting Place). Now this area (modern Cromarty Firth) is never actually fully clear weather it was fully under the King of Scotland's control or not, and I don't believe it's known when Vikings first arrived in this area, nor how much importance the place had. (Note that many, many places in the Highlands were founded by the Vikings: Dingwall, Wick (Vík), Tounge (Tunga(?)) and pretty much all of Orkney and Shetland. As well as many important Clans, such as MacDonald and MacLeod - which means Son of the Ugly One, Léod coming from Ljotr in O.N). So, in my portrayal of this Ualraig character he fully speaks Gaelic and Old Norse, while his ethnicity is a mix of Norse and Pictish/Brythonic/Ablannach - take your pick.



Discalimer: I know not all of the above should be put in a thread called "Historical Discussion" but alot of it was historical discussion and it furthers the conversation to help Aethel out.

Aethel said:

Let's use an example scenario:
A group of Norse (Norwegian if that distinction matters) settlers arrive on the Isle of Skye.
Now it's been a few generations; What would those descendants, if still living on Skye, speak?

Click to expand...

Sorry for double post, but I just realised I didn't actually answer your questions properly.

Gaelic and Old Norse. Though, it would be rather soon (soon, in the grand scheme of life's timeline) that the latter would stop being used. Aesthetically, as in their battle array, they'd be very much Norse/Viking. It wasn't for another good hundred years, if not more, that the classic Gallowglass arrived from the Western Isles.

That said, it's not as though the average Pict would've been bothered by the change of the aristocratic culture in the throneroom of Alba. To medieval peasants and earlier men, their village was usually the whole world.

Your village would be formed from a dozen or so hovels and one church that tells you you're Christian. You'd work hard to grow your food and you wouldn't get out much, but you'd have a landlord who you wouldn't see very often, and only he would know what it meant to be Irish, Scottish or Norwegian.

Two examples:
There were still pagan heretics in the hills of Mercia by 900 AD (thoroughly inbred of course), approximately 250 years after the vast majority of Saxons, Angles, Jutes and Theods settled in Britain converted to Roman Christianity.

A Norman historian who lived around 1200 AD recorded speaking with English serfs who still thought William the Conqueror was their king.

Thanks all. It helped tremendously.