In Middle-Earth all the ancient weapons that are so special were made in places that no longer exist by people that either no longer exist or have long since departed.
Elder Scrolls 5:Skyrim
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Cookie Eating Huskarl
Marquis
And we all wooh and ahh at the long since departed Rasputin's severed but still very much alive penis.
I think the only instance of the trope I actually found enjoyable was from one of the older story I read where a legendary weapon was made by a desperate race that was being chased and slowly exterminated. A sword forged by their last warrior, the material conjured from another realm and imbued with power using the blood sacrifice of every single one of their 10 thousand remaining able man, woman and child. The result was a scorched earth policy where said race voluntarily self terminated so their last warrior could visit utter revenge and destruction upon their enemy, causing said enemy's civilization to be exterminated in the process. Fast forward a few thousand years and the main character accidentally finds the sword in a tomb (built by said warrior) and finds out said legendary sword even host its own parliament (having 10000 entities locked in the sword kind of leads to that).
I think the only instance of the trope I actually found enjoyable was from one of the older story I read where a legendary weapon was made by a desperate race that was being chased and slowly exterminated. A sword forged by their last warrior, the material conjured from another realm and imbued with power using the blood sacrifice of every single one of their 10 thousand remaining able man, woman and child. The result was a scorched earth policy where said race voluntarily self terminated so their last warrior could visit utter revenge and destruction upon their enemy, causing said enemy's civilization to be exterminated in the process. Fast forward a few thousand years and the main character accidentally finds the sword in a tomb (built by said warrior) and finds out said legendary sword even host its own parliament (having 10000 entities locked in the sword kind of leads to that).
Cookie Eating Huskarl said:
That sounds eerily similar to the Something Wicked Saga by Iced Earth guitarist Jon Schaffer.
SacredStoneHead said:
Jhessail said:
So, I almost jumped the gun after reading some of these replies. I'm glad - in an awkward way - that I chose to open the post from the one guy I have ignored on the forum. **** you guys and your double standards. Ringwraith's argument supports my statement, and yet he received no mockery or insults for posting it (and none are deserved).
Jhessail apparently missed my little addendum, too.
Called it.
Orion said:
Because this
Ringwraith #5 said:
Is a lot different from this:
Orion said:
So yeah, if you couldn't tell the difference between the core argument of both posts, you shouldn't be so certain about this 'their double standards' of yours.
Some comment about lubing butts I read somewhere applies perfectly in this situation, somehow.
No, unfortunately it isn't. The rats don't speak. It's an really old joke in the Fallout community. Tim Cain said in an interview back in 1999 or 2000 that they intentionally built Fallout so you could play it through as Action Boy, Stealth Boy or Diplo Boy. Everyone agreed, thought it was marvelous and that every RPG should have the same. You'll note that F2 got some flak because it forced a bossfight on you at the end, that you couldn't sneak or talk your way through. Anyway, some troll came around and wrote that because you cannot discuss with the rats in the opening cave, but must run past them if you don't want to fight, there is no diplomatic way to play the game through, ie it sucks and worst game ever. Someone did that in response.krik said:Is that a possible thing in Fallout? Please tell me it is, and I just never discovered it.Jhessail said:
I don't think that happens. Or well, yes, it does happen, but as you said, that's the sole territory of hipsters not all gamers or even a majority of them. Not all old games were good, and not all new games are ****, but an overall trend has been for publishers and developers to maximize their market penetration. Only few devs are happy to stay in their niche. Even Paradox is now riding the streamlining horse towards the canyon of consolized death. Well, possibly - I'm not happy at all with the things they are saying about HoI4 but they might not go that far.Splintert said:
But the yearly iteration didn't escape the den of sports games until Call of Duty. Doom got two sequels - Doom 2 and Ultimate Doom. Unreal had what, three sequels? Quake went to part four. And they didn't come out annually and some of the sequels changed things around quite a bit.
The real reason for casualization are publishers and developers. The former often look at games from the viewpoint of any other commodity, and demand yearly growth and maximization of profits. The latter often grow unchecked, until their HR expenses alone require that they sell multiple millions of each game they make, every year. Personally, I blame Sony and Playstation, that finally broke down the barrier in gaming between nerds and "normal" people. Playstation made gaming acceptable to the population at large and other consoles have then followed along the same path.
Obviously you don't, because you've only encountered it a handful of times.Odyseuss said:
And no, Middle-Earth wasn't the original. Tolkien was inspired (or ripped off if you're cynical) by old folk stories and legends. King Arthur, Beowulf and Kalevala were his biggest sources. Story of Turin Turambar is almost an exact copy of the legend of Kullervo from Kalevala. ME was also technologically stagnant, because Tolkien was a romantical Catholic, and was suspicious of technology and industrialization. Note how the good guys lived in pastoral farmlands and bad guys had chimneys belching black smoke?
I don't agree. Remember, Bethesda advertised their game as allowing you to do anything, be anyone, go anywhere. They still do. Why is it then silly to think you could be a bard? Especially as every tavern in the game has one. I agree that roleplaying anything that isn't supported by game mechanics is silly, but it would be perfectly logical to expect bard-style gameplay possibilities in a game that's marketed the way Bethsoft marketed Skyrim.Ringwraith #5 said:
Orion, exactly what SacredStoneHead wrote. You argue that playing a bard is silly because it's an ACTION game. Ringwraith argued that playing a bard is silly because there are no mechanics supporting it.
Jhessail said:
http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=implication
Who would have thought that being an action game generally implies it doesn't have mechanics to support peaceful play? Let's also not forget the last sentence of the statement, which Sacred left out and which implies the same thing!
[quote author=Orion]It's safely assumed that when you buy an action game you expect action, not instrument minigames.[/quote]
I said this because Skyrim - obvious to anyone who has played it - does not let you play instruments. Which, considering that's a rather important thing for a bard, clearly implies that at least some core mechanics required to play a bard are not in the game.
I've had to say this in on-topic often, and I'm surprised I have to say it here but apparently it's necessary. If you don't read the post, don't reply to it. You clearly didn't read what I said, because reading implies (sorry, I sprung it on you again!) that you processed the literal message and - true for any modern language - have given thought to what was meant by it. This means making associations using context, history, etc. This is basic language processing that a functional adult should be capable of.
The only association I think you've made here is Orion = idiot. Luckily for me, the opinion of an illiterate, alcoholic Finn is meaningless unless I care to know what brand of cheap vodka I can get that won't kill me.
Cookie Eating Huskarl said:
Wouldn't it be really fun if you could subvert that every now and then?Wolfhead said:
As an option for all I care.
"Oh you special dude I picked up from the street, go and find sword x to open cave y to kill ancient evil z"
And then you can get yourself dynamite and blow open the cave and the first fifteen enemies inside it or something.
Skyrim also has lockpicking minigame, and stealth-play, and conversations, and books to read, and houses to build, and orphans to adopt - none of which is any kind of ACTION element in a game. Why are such things in an ACTION game? Tell me, o wise wizard. Furthermore, the game was advertised - as I've already written twice - as "be anything, do anything, go anywhere" type of open-world sandbox. Where does that leave your argument? In your ridiculous butt, that's where. In case you still didn't get it,
Skyrim has many game mechanics that support non-action gameplay. Thus, claiming that expecting bard-like gameplay solely because the game is classified as an action game is a vague and a pointless argument. If you had gone to the 15 seconds of extra effort, that Ringwraith did, we wouldn't be having this "conversation". Neither would we have it if you had just kept your mouth shut and moved on.
I should probably report your post for that pointless personal attack, but unlike you, I'm not such a sorry person that I need to constantly whine to authorities to mask my insecurities.
Skyrim has many game mechanics that support non-action gameplay. Thus, claiming that expecting bard-like gameplay solely because the game is classified as an action game is a vague and a pointless argument. If you had gone to the 15 seconds of extra effort, that Ringwraith did, we wouldn't be having this "conversation". Neither would we have it if you had just kept your mouth shut and moved on.
I should probably report your post for that pointless personal attack, but unlike you, I'm not such a sorry person that I need to constantly whine to authorities to mask my insecurities.
Like that scene from original Indy, where he just shoots the expert swordsman? That would be brilliant! Similarly, it would be awesome if the early game builds the player character up to be THE CHOSEN ONE, but by mid-game you find out that it's all just insane ramblings of drugged-up charlatan-prophets, and there is no ANCIENT EVIL to defeat.Wellenbrecher said:Wouldn't it be really fun if you could subvert that every now and then?
I'd prefer there to be an ancient evil but it turns out you're not the chosen one. Which would then lead to aforementioned "asymmetrical" stuff like dynamite vs ancient puzzle.
Summoner had a good take on that. Wise sage tells you that you're the chosen one from a prophesy and only you can defeat the big bad evil thing.
Turns out that you are the chosen one, but the thing you were chosen for is actually pretty damn insignificant and it was mostly just an elaborate ruse to trick you into going around and picking up some rare jewelry for said wise sage.
Extra double points for the scene where he's all like 'Nah bro, it's cool you can shove your hand into this searing hot furnace, you're the chosen one, you'll be fine'. Made the next part of the game pretty hard as I'd chosen mostly two handed weapon skills.
Turns out that you are the chosen one, but the thing you were chosen for is actually pretty damn insignificant and it was mostly just an elaborate ruse to trick you into going around and picking up some rare jewelry for said wise sage.
Extra double points for the scene where he's all like 'Nah bro, it's cool you can shove your hand into this searing hot furnace, you're the chosen one, you'll be fine'. Made the next part of the game pretty hard as I'd chosen mostly two handed weapon skills.
Amagic
Baron
Cookie Eating Huskarl said:
I always thought that was because of magic. People in fantasy worlds don't concern themselves with science because everything can be explained away with "because its magic, bro" and considering how much of the stuff in fantasy worlds really is stuff that can't be explained with the laws of physics, I can't fault them for thinking like that.
Then there is the lack of need for technology because its replaced by magic. Need to travel fast from A to B? Teleportation or magic portals. Send messages quickly over large distances? Magic again. Medicine? Healing spells. Is it any wonder that the guys that do even remotely scientific stuff are always mages?
Then there's magical catastrophes that constantly throw the worlds into little apocalypses. Powerful mages on power trips, gods ****ing up worlds, natural calamities that are magical in nature. It could even be argued that its true for Star Wars as well, where every bad thing ever is because Jedi gone bad or Sith and the Galaxy gets thrown into apocalyspe again. Frankly I'm surprised medieval fantasy worlds don't constantly get thrown back into the Stone Age.
No sorcery here, just rubbing a few brain cells together.
Jhessail said:
Redundant, and as Ringwraith has previously pointed out you can't play stealth without combat, because the very first task you're given in the main quest line after you leave Riverwood is to go sneak into a crypt where you're required to kill a draugr to retrieve an item. There's more of this throughout the game. The thieve's guild is even lax about murder in Skyrim. It's safe to say these things generally lead to action of some sort, or give you options to control the action. You cannot avoid action entirely through stealth.
More redundancy. Lore, aka explanations for why you're doing random **** for NPCs, why these NPCs are here at all, and - because Bethesda at least pretends to care - info about where it all fits in the grand scheme of things. Even Doom had plot messages. I struggle to come up with a single game I've played that doesn't have some kind of explanation for why things are the way they are.
Optional DLC. Keyword: optional. Don't forget that these also provide more opportunities for action, because you'll randomly be attacked at your house by creatures/bandits, children/spouses will be kidnapped, etc., and these require violent solutions. Nothing in Skyrim is free of action. You can't even wait indefinitely in a corner outside without being attacked eventually.
I refuse to concede this point based on what's written on their website. The only sourced quote I've seen is from Untitled., and it's this one:
This by itself can be interpreted as you are choosing to. When combined with the following quote from the same place:
Suddenly it becomes more restricted. The "you are what you play" quote narrows your options, defining your choices, while keeping the "play any way you want"/"play any type of character" bit. These are from the same scrolling Features box on the same page of their website. The way this box is laid out leads me to believe that the first quote is a broad, general statement about the game's features (it's also displayed first). The other contents of the scrolling box are more specific, but can all be tied back to that first general statement. For example, the storytelling/adventure part:
The "coming to life like never before part":
Everything ties into that first, general statement which is the only sourced quote provided (thank you, Untitled.). Closer inspection of that general statement reveals it is further defined by following statements which are more specific, and in line with what I have said.
Now, if you can source a quote from some official advertisement that isn't one of the above quotes, then by all means do so. Otherwise, I will expand my claim to state that the game was not advertised as some high-fantasy alternate reality life simulator, and maintain that it was advertised as an action game with RPG elements. Thus, expecting to play a pacifist is unreasonable.
Funny thing about TES is that it's cannon that the Empire used to have 'space' ships/stations. But they gave up on them because they were expensive to build and the only thing you could do with them was travel to other 'planets' which are all oblivion planes so you inevitably end up getting your mind eaten by Vaermina or some such. IIRC there was also a moon base, but they ditched that as well as I guess there's not actually a lot to do on the corpse of a dead god.Amagic said:
Orion, you are something special, alright.
I was going to write an serious reply, but then I realized that in your twisted mind, that's probably a victory of some sorts, so I'll only say this:
If after all these posts by more than one poster, you don't realize why folks called you stupid but did not jump on Ringwraith's case, there is no amount of legalistic word-****ing that can save you. Please use those few brain cells together a little more and maybe things will crystallize to you.
Also, you defend Todd by claiming that his words have been taken out of context or even that Untitled is outright lying about him. I provided you with two bright examples of lying done by three different Bethesda spokesperson/lead developers. Hopefully your spine is straight enough that you now apologize to Untitled, for unjustly implying that he's a liar.
I was going to write an serious reply, but then I realized that in your twisted mind, that's probably a victory of some sorts, so I'll only say this:
If after all these posts by more than one poster, you don't realize why folks called you stupid but did not jump on Ringwraith's case, there is no amount of legalistic word-****ing that can save you. Please use those few brain cells together a little more and maybe things will crystallize to you.
Also, you defend Todd by claiming that his words have been taken out of context or even that Untitled is outright lying about him. I provided you with two bright examples of lying done by three different Bethesda spokesperson/lead developers. Hopefully your spine is straight enough that you now apologize to Untitled, for unjustly implying that he's a liar.
Amagic
Baron
Moss said:
Huh, I actually had to look that up. Found some mentions of Mananauts and Sun Birds that were "attempts" to explore Aetherius, but nothing on any colonies, as far as official sources go. Too much of this stuff is buried under tons of really weird fan fiction usually involving aliens.
Jhessail said:
Pretty much it.
But as I have a bit of time to waste...
@Orion:
You have no clue of what you're talking about, you're just bending words to make it suit the first ****ty argument you put on the table.
Skyrim is not an action game just because it is combat focused by any means, go study a bit more before talking so much out of your ass.
I'd say that you should follow your own advice and learn to Google yourself, at least read some pretty basic Wikipedia stuff on the definition of RPG games and Action games before spewing crap all over the place.
This is such a retarded discussion...
If we go by what AAA games are throwing around as "Roleplaying" these days, then that usually means "big guy with sword and throwing flames". When the **** Todd says "you can do what you want", then he mean "you can use one sword or two swords, fireballs or freeze spells". He'd never mean "talk your way out of a situation".
It's stupid, dumbed down console crap, non-violent interactions were never in the scope of the game as intended by **** Todd and never expected by the console crowd and many retards on PC neither. I'd say that whoever went into this and expected some intricate role-playing mechanics and the various totally different abilities to experience the world ignored some serious marketing, which only ever threw action into our faces.
You lot either are wilfully ignoring each other's points or are incapable of seeing the other side.
The sad thing is that you're essentially agreeing.
@SSH
Yeah, definitions are nice and dandy, but man, Skyrim fits both descriptions equally bad.
If we go by what AAA games are throwing around as "Roleplaying" these days, then that usually means "big guy with sword and throwing flames". When the **** Todd says "you can do what you want", then he mean "you can use one sword or two swords, fireballs or freeze spells". He'd never mean "talk your way out of a situation".
It's stupid, dumbed down console crap, non-violent interactions were never in the scope of the game as intended by **** Todd and never expected by the console crowd and many retards on PC neither. I'd say that whoever went into this and expected some intricate role-playing mechanics and the various totally different abilities to experience the world ignored some serious marketing, which only ever threw action into our faces.
You lot either are wilfully ignoring each other's points or are incapable of seeing the other side.
The sad thing is that you're essentially agreeing.
@SSH
Yeah, definitions are nice and dandy, but man, Skyrim fits both descriptions equally bad.
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