Suggestions and Critique

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hi,
I see the info thread and in map in Portugal dint have the city of Porto.
Why dint appear? Porto is a very important city, she is pre-roman city and Give the name of Portugal, because in the past the name isn't Porto but Portu cale  (c. 200 a.C.). And his the capital of Portucalense Condado

Historically the Portugal creation:
(Year 1135-1189)

Leiria-Castle
Santarém-Castle
Lisboa -Castle
Almada-Castle
Palmela-Castle
Alcácer do Sal-Castle
Tomar-Castle
Évoramonte-Castle
Beja-Castle
Évora-Castle
Serpa-Castle
Moura-Castle
Badajoz-Castle
Silves-Castle

There are other important places:
(Braga,Bragança,Lamego, Viseu, Terras da Feira, Coimbra,Sintra are important too).

Small city near Porto: Gaia
near Santarém: Torres Novas
near Lisboa: Setúbal

Maybe you want to check this:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porto
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Condado_Portucalense
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquista
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruzados
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronologia_da_Reconquista
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hist%C3%B3ria_de_Portugal

I don´t know if you can check and change samme corrections in Portugal, but as i say before Porto is very important to not appear in the map, as you can see in this sites about Portugal history.
 
About the orders i see tah are a lot of orders and the Templar Order (poorest Knight) have a lot of importance.
Maybe you can add more Orders.
I see this sites.

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordem_militar
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordem_dos_Templ%C3%A1rios
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruzados
 
Someone mentioned it before - I also think there could be a little more wargroups of Bandits etc.. Another thing is, they are way too fast for my party as soon as I have about 15 men. They always get away when they try to avoid a battle. Or it takes an awfull long time till I reach them. Would it be o.k. to slow them down a little? Especially if they are not mounted ones. Or is it just that I am the only one that is way too slow? Me and my party of pensioners.
 
Depends, if you have an army of infantry you'll usually be crawling around the map. I never have big problems cacthing bandits even I have 50-75 troops.
 
King/                        Event/                        Place    / Year

Afonso Henriques /foundation of Castle    /Leiria /1135
Afonso Henriques /Battle of Ourique        /Ourique/ 1139
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle    /Santarém/ 1147
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle  /Lisboa/ 1147
Afonso Henriques /Battle of Sacavém *  /Sacavém /1147
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle  /Almada /1147
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle / Palmela /1147
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle/Alcácer do Sal /1158
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle of Cera/ Tomar /1159
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle  /Évoramonte /1159
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle  /Beja /1159
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle  /Beja /1162
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle  /Évora /1165
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle  /Serpa /1166
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle / Moura /1166
Afonso Henriques /Conquest of Castle /Badajoz /1169
D. Sancho I          /Conquest of Castle  /Silves /1189
D. Afonso II        /Battle Navas of Tolosa /Navas of Tolosa /1212
D. Afonso IV      /Battle of Salado        /Salado /1340

* - Considered by the legendary modern historiography

I dint know who research Portugal, but obvious dint did the job Right.
As you see this are the dates of most important intervention of Portugal according to official documents.
http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconquest


And about dint have Porto?
Can you show me the actual map of faction Portugal, because in the information post you say tath is a old map of the game.
Thks
 
It's you who hasn't researched it very well. Portugal occupied some more southern places for brief periods, but failed to hold on to any of them before years after 1200. The Almohads had control of pretty much all land south of Lisabon in 1200.
 
I dont know where you see this dates but i can show you more sites and oficial documents of Portugal, im portuguese and i i know very well the history of my country.
Show me your sites and documents.
Can you send me too the map and the lords of Portugal for the game so i can see them and help to correct somme possible incorrections and grammatical errors.
I only want to help to make a more acurate and historicall mod
Thks for the replies and can you send me this informations.
thks for all.

 
Brocas said:
I dont know where you see this dates but i can show you more sites and oficial documents of Portugal, im portuguese and i i know very well the history of my country.
Show me your sites and documents.
Can you send me too the map and the lords of Portugal for the game so i can see them and help to correct somme possible incorrections and grammatical errors.
I only want to help to make a more acurate and historicall mod
Thks for the replies and can you send me this informations.
thks for all.

And like most guys who come here and says they "knows their countrys history well", you claim your country was stronger than what was the actual case.

If I had any indication that you knew what you were talking about I would be happy to send you some info, but right now I doubt I'll get any actual corrections from you.
 
I never talk about strong and i never compare countries.
I never highlight my country and i never compare him to others countries.
I see you dint have any documents about your fundamentation.
In my topics i only ask about somme questions like the map of Portugal dint have Porto.
But i see you dint say nothigh about tath.Because who know Portugal history dint forget Porto.
Ok you say tath you dint get any corrections for me and i dint know wath I'm talking about, but i post with documents, instead of you post with rhetorical arguments.
If you send the information tath i ask you its not only for me but to others players too.


 
Brocas said:
I never talk about strong and i never compare countries.
I never highlight my country and i never compare him to others countries.
I see you dint have any documents about your fundamentation.
In my topics i only ask about somme questions like the map of Portugal dint have Porto.
But i see you dint say nothigh about tath.Because who know Portugal history dint forget Porto.
Ok you say tath you dint get any corrections for me and i dint know wath I'm talking about, but i post with documents, instead of you post with rhetorical arguments.
If you send the information tath i ask you its not only for me but to others players too.

Fine, for a quick start, lets use what you call "Official Portuguese documents", or more popular: Wikipedia, for some of the cities you claim to be under Portuguese rule at this time:
Silves
In 1189 King Sancho I of Portugal conquered the town with the aid of Northern European crusaders,[3] but lost it again to the Almohads. Periodic raiding expeditions were sent from Al-Andalus to ravage the Iberian Christian kingdoms, bringing back booty and slaves. The governor of Córdoba attacked Silves in 1191, and took 3,000 Christian slaves.[4] Again under Muslim rule, the city was then prosper to the point of being called the Baghdad of the West.

Badajoz
It was founded by the Galician Muslim Ibn Marwan around 875 and after 1022 it became the capital of a small Moorish kingdom ,(Taifa of Badajoz); though temporarily held by the Portuguese in 1168, it retained its independence until 1229; when it was captured by Alfonso IX of Leon. It was known as Batlabus and Batalyos during Moorish rule.

Beja
In 1150 the town was captured by an army of the Almohads, who annexed it to their North-African empire. It was retaken in 1162 by Fernão Gonçalves, leading the army of the Portuguese king Afonso I. In 1175 Beja was recaptured again by the Almohads. It stayed under Muslim rule till 1234 when king Sancho II finally recaptured the town from the Moors.

I'm sure Cèsar, and Iberian Wolf (a guy doing some Portuguese research for us) would be able to shoot you down on an epic level. Now go away.
 
I post Wikiopedia because you can see it in English. And other sites, documents or books you dont. The dates and the context is coorect. Because if you dont believe it check and confirm it in Biography of the portuguese page of wikipedia.

Maybe you dont understand my words i know i dont speak English very well but again you dont talk about Porto.It is the town that gave name to Portugal (c. 200 BC), Portus Cale,and the capital of the Condado Portucalense.
In my posts i ask about Porto but you never reach it.

About Badajoz you say tath in 1229 it was captured by Alfonso IX of Leon, but it isnt true because it is in 1230.

About Beja i think you are mistake again.

The foundation of Beja is attributed to Celts, 400 years before Christ. It is said that he was under the dominion of the Carthaginians, but what is beyond doubt is that the Romans dominated for many years, and then Beja an important city. It was called the Pax Julia and was named to commemorate the pacification of the Lusitania.
In 48 BC stopped the long and successful resistance of the Lusitania and Julius Caesar celebrated peace, by granting privileges and rights. In different phases of the Roman Beja always had eminent place, enjoyed the right italics, a convent was the headquarters of a legal and foreign ministries of the four created by the emperor Augustus in Lusitania. In the organization of Augustus (24 BC) and of Titus (75 years) Beja figure as the main cities of Lusitania. Augustus changed his name to Pax Augusta, which did not prevail.
With the fall of the Roman Empire, went to the power of the Beja Swabians and then the Goths, which it established an episcopal see, and its first bishop St. Aprígio.
Prelate of the sixth century, was the first bishop of Beja. He became famous for his comments to the "Apocalypse" and "Song of Songs," now known only by references to it are other authors such as St. Isidore of Sevilha.Jorge Cardoso (in Agrologio Lusitano) proved that the testimony of various writers agree to give as bishop of Beja and not of Badajoz, as some Spanish. In the Library Lusitana, also refers Diogo Barbosa Machado to this holy prelate.
It is said to be succeeded by Palmacio that year was 589 in the Third Council of Toledo. It follows Modario and Deodato, who attended the eighth Council of Toledo in 653. The successor of this was John, illustrious prelate. No other bishop ruled the diocese until the fall of the Visigothic monarchy.
Century. The VIII century. Beja XII had a troubled history. Conquered by the Moors in 715, was taken by Alfonso I, king of León and Asturias, and three years later by Fruela I, King of Oviedo, who had to give in to Abd-el-Raman 760. It was then held by the Saracens during the century and a half. Ordonho II reconquered it in 910 or 914, but 985 Almansor took it again.
In 1037, Fernando, "the Great", Leo, owned it for awhile and in 1155 was made by D. Afonso Henriques, who lost again, coming down definitively in the hands of Christians in the year 1162, conquered by a group of bourgeois captained by Fernão Gonçalves. In 1179 the Moors still tried to recover the town but were repulsed by Sancho I, in a match where he lost his life Gonçalo Mendes da Maia, "the Warrior" (It is in the Public Garden, a mosaic depicting the fall of the famous before the Moorish warrior) with, according the story goes, 95 years old.
Gonçalo Mendes da Maia, "the Warrior"
Renowned Portuguese baron of the century. XI and XII, descendant of a bastard of King Ramiro II of Leon and the Warrior nicknamed by his constant labors against the Moors.
He was the son of D. Mem Gonçalves, 3. head of the house of the Mayans, and D. Leodegunda Smith, the "Mullet", the house of Baiões. A narration of Nobility Earl D. Peter, though overrun with difficulties and fearful of not a few absurdities, he removed them to immortality as the protagonist of a famous warrior from the Beja action against the king Almoliamar when he was already 95 years old you are.
No wonder that after so many struggles and battles that took place for its possession, Beja, came to the sixth century. XIII completely devastated and destroyed. D. Afonso III repopulated the village and endowed it with defense works the construction of which the following reigns. The diocese of Beja, who had spent during the Saracen domination to Badajoz, only in the reign of King Joseph was restored, and its first bishop Frei Manuel of the Cenacle. D. Afonso V created the Duchy of Beja in favor of his brother, Prince Fernando, and D. John II granted the same title to his cousin D. Manuel, after the king. Since the reign of King Manuel, duke of Beja were the second sons of kings, by D. Pedro IV, who made Duke of Porto second son, Duke of Beja and the third son.
Beja charter was given by Alfonso III in 1254, confirmed by D. Denis in 1291. It was elevated to city status in 1517. D. Manuel came to organize the process for the new charter, which was never given.
Beja was the birthplace of notable personalities of national history, such as S. Sesinando, the celebrated Jewish philosopher Spinoza, Queen Eleanor, Andrew, Anthony and Diogo de Gouveia, João Afonso de Beja, D. Frei Amador Arrais, Jerome Arrais, D. Father Anthony Gouveia, Jacinto Freire de Andrade, Mariana Alcoforado, José Agostinho de Macedo, D. Francisco Alexandre Lobo, etc ...

About Silves:

Despite losing much of its population and wealth, Silves was elevated to the bishopric and the military government after the final conquest of the city under Christian occupation of the Algarve -1242/1249 - ended the reign of King Afonso III.


So if your friends know a lot of Portugal how can they forget Porto.

And about Silves tath bein "...called the Baghdad of the West.." where you see tath. You believe tath in the time they called "Baghdad of the West" to do such comparation i dont know wath books or documents you read but i visit a lot the Torre of Tombo and never seen either in books or documents in such comparison, such comparisons are obvious fact of writers and authors who do not know the reality its why make such a ridiculous comparison? Im sure they arent of Iberian Peninsula.

I remember you again if you forget Porto,because it dont appear in the map?

If you go to post it, do it with the same courtesy and respect with which I have done with you, because you dont know me to make personal opinions about me or miss me with offenses.
 
I'm currently finishing the research for Portugal. And like Cruger aptly said, by 1200 pretty much everything south of Tagus was dominated by the Almohads - the ONLY exception is Évora, taken definitively by the portuguese on 1165, and this city was, precisely, the birthplace of the Order of Avis(but at that time, the name was Militia/Friars of St. Mary of Évora). It was a branch of the Calatrava Order with some degree of autonomy though.

Brocas, the map you saw is not the final one. It's obvious that Porto will be included.

However your remarks about Badajoz, Beja and Silves are not true. If you are really portuguese, read some Herculano for instance and you'll see you're wrong. The name of the mod is "Europe 1200", and therefore, nothing that happened after this year is relevant. All those cities were reconquered eventually, but only decades after.
 
Adding religion features.

Adding orthodox, catholic and cathar crosses, among with other religion's symbols which the player can buy. Each type while on your inventory should imrpove relations with the factons of each cult. Maybe jewish symbols could make you get better deals with the jewish moneylenders I suggested long ago.

Also adding churches and mosques, enterable if possible. Here you would be able to talk to the priest, maybe to get some minor quests, but also to make donations. Let's say that every 1000 denars you donate you get +1 reputation.

A crusade (and afterwards a Jihad) system. So that there is a code that calculates the reations among the Papal States, its allies and the rest. A crusade would be normally declared against muslims, as they are often in war with catholics. Maybe they could get a + in the code, so that it's more probable for them to get the crusade.

Relations with the Papal States. If you attack the Papal States you can loose relations with several kingdoms. Let's say France and England, as i supose that the HRE would even be happy. Attacking the PS could also make you suffer a crusade.

A crusade event against the moors that ends up with the Battle of Navas de Tolosa. Basicly France, Navarre, Leon, Castille, Aragon and.... Portugal? among with templars and others gather against a great almohad force in the correct location. You would get 2 messages, 1 telling you that they are going to war, and another one telling you that they are camping and ready for battle. If you don't take part in the battle the gathering of armies would finish, and lords would return to their homes. Then you would get a third message telling you about the battle and how did it end, maybe with a picture like in the M2TW events.
 
Look, Brocas, when you know History, you don't have to proof some things with documents or books. I wouldn't know how to proof that the Visigoths established a kingdom in today's southern France, and then they expanded into Spain, and then they lost France to the Franks. It's something... undenyable.

The same goes for Portugal having lost most of its conquests south of the Tagus before 1200. Castille lost most of its holdings south of the Tagus too after the battle of Alarcos. Even the Order of Calatrava lost their stronghold of Calatrava.

This map is not the most correct of all maps, but it comes from the "Atlas Histórico de España, vol. 1", by the Ladero Quesada brothers, recognised Spanish historians:

espaamapa.jpg


They don't show Castille's losses after Alarcos, and they don't highlight the independent counties in Catalonia (Urgell, Pallars, Empúries), or the Aragonese possessions in France (Gévaudan, Carlat...), but overall it's a good map.

So, cool down everybody. We appreciate additional help, but of course we are suspicious when someone claims something to be true, when we know it's not.

Take care!


EDIT:


Revan Shan said:
Adding orthodox, catholic and cathar crosses, among with other religion's symbols which the player can buy. Each type while on your inventory should imrpove relations with the factons of each cult. Maybe jewish symbols could make you get better deals with the jewish moneylenders I suggested long ago.

We wouldn't do that with crosses, but with books. And not bibles, since the bible was the same for Catholics, Orthodoxes and most of the heretics (hence their heresies, they relied more on the bible's teachings than the Catholics).

But the Vulgata could indicate your "catholicism", while a Greek or Slavic bible would be the proof of you being orthodox. There would be a number of heretic books that would be given to you through a quest (buying heretic books in the shop or the book sellers...? I don't think so).

We still keep your proposals and many others in the queue, but we can't make it all at the same time, can we?

Also adding churches and mosques, enterable if possible. Here you would be able to talk to the priest, maybe to get some minor quests, but also to make donations. Let's say that every 1000 denars you donate you get +1 reputation.

Yes, another thing that's been in the queue for some time. But I like the idea of donations. They would raise your relationship with the town and also your reputation.

A crusade (and afterwards a Jihad) system. So that there is a code that calculates the reations among the Papal States, its allies and the rest. A crusade would be normally declared against muslims, as they are often in war with catholics. Maybe they could get a + in the code, so that it's more probable for them to get the crusade.

No, we'll represent crusades through a chain of quests. No systems to declare a crusade whenever Jerusalem is under Muslim hands. There will be, at least, three crusades: the Fourth Crusade, the Albigensian Crusade, and maybe the Crusade that ended with the Christian victory in Las Navas.

Relations with the Papal States. If you attack the Papal States you can loose relations with several kingdoms. Let's say France and England, as i supose that the HRE would even be happy. Attacking the PS could also make you suffer a crusade.

Several people attacked the Papal States at the time. My idea is to make the Pope a separate faction, linked to the Papal States the way a military order would be to their "chief kindom". The Papal States, ruled by the Cardinal Camerlengo, are the Pope's "military order", to say it in terms of mechanics. This way, you could overrun the Papal States without making the Pope leave Rome, and we could also portray a situation in which the Pope makes you leader of the Papal States.

A crusade event against the moors that ends up with the Battle of Navas de Tolosa. Basicly France, Navarre, Leon, Castille, Aragon and.... Portugal? among with templars and others gather against a great almohad force in the correct location. You would get 2 messages, 1 telling you that they are going to war, and another one telling you that they are camping and ready for battle. If you don't take part in the battle the gathering of armies would finish, and lords would return to their homes.

I don't know how would we do it, but I'll save your suggestion. Thanks!
 
Revan Shan said:
But how will those crusades be held? In the exact year? If so the player would have to play ten years to get to the Albiguesian Crusade.

Well, the Albigensian Crusade happened in 1214, but it could have happened earlier. The heretic were there, the inestability was there, Aragonese ambitions across the Pyrinees were there, the Pope was there... the pieces were set, but the trigger, eventual and random, had still to be set. The trigger was the assassination of the Papal Legate, Pèire de Castelnau... which will be up to the player.

The way these crusades will be held is a problem, I mean the armies following you and so on... that's too much of a problem. But I'm sure we'll take advantatge of game mechanics to portray them the best we can.
 
I didnt know tath you only count the map to 1200, ok but sure i read Herculano, and others authors too, and i see a lot of docs in Torre do Tombo and in Municipal Bibliotec in Lisbon.
In this as you can read in Herculano, some times there is a fixed date or a concern about tath. Because there are cases tath the documents have been lost,danificated,or destroyed.And then as Herculanos refers we need  to see old and new documents about the situaion, sure are dates tath cant be exact. But it isnt the case. You should visit Torre do Tombo so you can confirm tath dates and the events are true. I dont lye or ivent one of them. 
Ok but i see tath Porto will be add to the map, im happy about tath.
But i see tath about Orders in the Portugal and i check this.


Order of Templários, based in Source.
Order of the Hospitallers, or the Hospital (also known as the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem, with headquarters in Tomar.
Order of Malta, with headquarters in the Monastery of Leça do Bailio and then in Crato.
Order of Calatrava or Aviz, based in Évora and then Aviz.
Order of Santiago da Espada: with vast lands and castles, among whom were Palmela, Mértola, Tavira, etc.
The first two military orders were introduced in Portugal in reign of D. Teresa, and the remaining two during the reign of King Afonso Henriques.

 
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