Combat realism in Brytenwalda the discussion

Things I thought to change:
(Arguements of others I added in red)


1. Speed:
Weaponspeed in Brytenwalda really looks like such old hollywood films out of the 60ies.
It seems like the swords and axes would weight tons.

Actually speed is a very important factor in combat and because of that every time in history weapons were made
to load fast and to move fast.

Here're some vids so you know what I mean:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KsbRRVdBuZE&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HY28pIHEhk&feature=related

-All in all maybe a bit less than native speed. (native is quite fast)

2.Damage
Ever survived and axe slice through your head?
Well, I hope you never had and wont have this situation in future, but you have to  understand my arguement, that this will probably be deadly. Same with ranged weapons.....

I think you get the point.

-Ranged weapons: just a bit more damage, but less arrows (Bow and Arrow were less effective in the early medieval period)
-Spears should deliver more damage in relation to other weapons. (Now just too weak in relation)


Related to above: Speed/Damage:
Actually the problem seems to lie in the experience system: Low level characters are jus too weak. (They fight like children I'd say ) With later levels combat realism gets better. Because of this just changing the speed and damage would be dangerous. In later levels it could be too fast and too deadly.

What we need is a new leveling system. (low levels are a bit better then before)


3.One-handed or two-handed?
Actually in the early medieval period, in which Brytenwalda takes place, most warriors couldn't afford armor.
So what to do? They used shields to save themselves from arrows, spears and axes and even sometimes a sword.

What if you carry a two handed weapon? You will not be able to carry a shield that's for shure and that means that it is impossible to cover yourself from ranged weapons. In later medieval times platearmors would've done this job, but in 600AD they're not invented yet. That means that one handed weapons must've been widely in use.

Indeed they did.

You won't find a single two handed sword in this period. Two handed axes where infrequent too.

A second thing related to that:
In game we're able to us swords with one and with two hands, but actually there is no place to hold them in two hands!
And thats because, as we know, they were never designed to be held in two hands.

-If there're swords in game that can be possibly welded with two hands, you'll still get the option to.


4.Shields
Here we have got two things too discuss:
1. Shields were the armor of the avarage warrior we allready know. They were so widely used because every warrior could do his "at home" and needn't to buy it from an professional weapon smith.

But why are shields so expensive in game?

-But shields with iron rim are still expensive

2.Out of my own experience I can say, that if you want an big and sturdy shield it will be quite heavy. AgloSaxon Shields where made out of a thin linden wood layer wich was relative light but didn't bear up much damage.
Here is a very good video for those who are interested in shields:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbK7m3w9FXI

So what we need ar two sorts of shields: One that is quite light and fast (as it is in game) but doesn't bear much damage
                                                                  And another that bears much damage, but is quite heavy and slow.

-Small shields are more durable than large ones(I'd say large shields get a bit more health then)



5.Horses
I'm not a horse expert, but I get the illusion, that the horses in game ar a bit slow. Not much but a bit.
Maybe here are some horse experts in forum who can tell more about it.
But remember: The horses in the medieval and more extremely the early medieval period wher smaller (as shown in the game) as the horses today! So we can imagine, that they must have been a bit weaker too!

And another thing:
Horsecharge.
Horsecharge damage is way to little in Mount&Blade.
Now please everyone who was once stamped down by an horse raises his hand.

If you survived and horse just running over you, you had good luck you didn't took instant injouries.
But in game  raising the horsecharge damage to an realistic amount is a bit difficult I can say out of my experience from my own mod. If you make it too high cavalry will just ride down their enemies.

-Adding a bit but not too much would be right.
-Reducing the horse health just a bit (bcause it is right now allready heavilly reduced)
I'll use much less chargedamage on smaller horses like ponies (to simulate shie) and use more chargedamage on big horses like the Ario (to simulate an aggressive charge)



Others:
-Weaponbrakeage, needs actually to get fixed. (Far, far too high now, maybe removing it completely)
-Helmets really need to give more armor.
New Ideas:
-Shieldbash
-Polarm welding system:

I'VE GOT AN IDEA!

I ragged my brain now since the online beta stages of Warband. There I first tried to fight with spear and shield unmounted.
And it was horrible. When the enemy was too close I had no Idea how to create any damage with my spear.

This is an old Mount&Blade problem. So what to do?
I first thougt of an second sting animation, an sting from above the shield, but I have no idea how to animate and this would be defenitly unrealistic. (Only ancient greec used this sting and actually the spear is quite difficult to handle in this position.)

But I got the Idea when lookin today at my inventory and seeing my throwingaxes. If you press x you can use them as a one handed weapon right?

What if you have the same thing with spear? The enemy gets close and you just press x and your caracter will held the spear closer so it has a smaller range!

What do you think about it? 

Just choose the things you want to have changed in gameplay in the way I mentioned. The arguements I noted below them will influence the changes to game too:
Speed: 41votes
Damage: 38votes
1/2handed: 30votes
Shields: 43votes
Horses: 35votes
None: 13votes

BRYTENWALDA
Presentation: Historical system battle

The new fight system of BRYTENWALDA is the result of a deep study to reach the maximum offered by the M&B engine.:hmmm:



The starting idea was to make the AI an enemy difficult to defeat, and also to make the battles more complex and funnier, not for arcade players but for strategy lovers. We have tried to accomplish these requirements by studying manuals of battles and strategies of the historical period, as well as the different classical sources that make reference to this points. Also we added the "experimental archaelogy" of clanmates and recreation world in the exercise of throwing javelins or using slings. No animal suffered and no public good was damaged during those tests. 

Clan del Cuervo picture: www.clandelcuervo.com

The realism was intended to be the way and the transport, trying to approach us, in the limitations of the engine, to the historical situations of the generals and Lords of War in that period.

Nevertheless, Brytenwalda is based on a time as the seventh century and in a place such as the British Isles, which is well adapted to the system of game Mount & Blade (it's impossible to represent faithfully a battle of ancient times with forces of more than fifteen thousand men on each side) We are talking of meetings of several hundred, and sometimes, rare, a few thousand.
We talked about a fight, direct, bloody and tactical.



Features:

In principle the movement of our army will vary much more depending on the terrain, and also depending on the units. A heavy infantry should be very slow, but the light infantry should move quickly and easily.

Each unit has been worked in different aspects. Heavy infantry will behave as heavy infantry, with good defense, but slower in atack and manoeuvring. The same for the rest of units.
The heavy infantry in history has generally been used as an element of shock, with limited tactics. I speak of the heavy infantry especially because at this time it was core of the armies.
His way forward was to advance, throwing javelins or darts, form a shieldwall and charge. Could have a defensive character (hold the enemy while the cavalry, light infantry or other heavy infantry won the flanks of the enemy), or offensive, to fall upon the enemy, collide and bleed. Battles were won for moral, not for causalities, never forget that.

And men were not fighting for hours. A man can fight the maximum pressure a time of 10-15 m, before being exhausted. So there was a relay system for example.

Several parameters have been taken into account, as the lethality and reaction time of each weapon, and they are now different. A knife can be terribly rapid, but not very dangereous, mainly depending on the armour of the enemy unit. It cannot be the same thing trying to trespass a mailchain or gutting an almost nude slinger. Each weapon will give advantages and disadvantages. A heavy sword will give a certain advantage in charge, but is less efficient in close melée fighting. A short sword, on the contrary, is not the best weapon to charge with, but is very lethal in close combat.

Each armour and shield has been also treated with specific stats.




Projectile is another point drastically transformed from Brytenwalda. These units are no more machine guns, but the casualties will depend more on the position related to the objective and we have tried to adjust casualties to the data obtained from ancient-medieval battles. They are a good tactical element if used properly, as they can reduce the moral of the enemy, making charges more efficient.

Moral. There are no units without fear, fighting to death. This is very epic but no real at all. In Brytenwalda the soldiers will be hence impredictable. They can fight as lions or, more probably, to rout quickly in a difficult moment. The use of this kind of troops in battle makes necessary a strong organization of our troops.
One of the effects obtained in this way is the possibility of winning the battle in a zone of the battlefield, whereas the other side of your army breaks because you was not able to close lines in due time.
If you want to bring veterans to battle, you will have to invest money (they are expensives), and it is your choice, either less amount of high quality troops or more units full of noob soldiers.

In any case our goal is that the battle will be won by the best general, that knows how to take advantage of his troops, their moral and the terrain in the best way, not by the general with the most powerful army (superhuman units have disappeared ).

We think that the AI is notably improved with those changes, being a harder enemy. However, more tests are needed in this aspect.

Finally another positive point is that we will have the chance of having success with any kind of tactics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA6HWKtri5g&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kukdWsu98IU

and preparate combat:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpfv_VMaynQ&feature=related


In this other video you can see you can see what is conservative sparring with sticks. Imagine with swords and your life
In single combat, surely a half each blow to millimeter unloads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyzHmM22fWk&feature=related