Bows are Terrible!!

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Espada

Recruit
Now id just like to start off by saying that i have been playing this mod for a week now and i love it!! But I have yet to find any good bows for use and every bow I have seen, even Masterwork bows, have all had their accuracy below 65.  To me this is too low and has made me view my skill points dump into power draw and horse archery be a complete waste.  Was this intentionally done?? Is there plans to change this??
 
Archers were really underrated for many years after the fall of Rome. An average shire levy was considered more valuable than a good archer. Men in those days generally felt like archery was for the weak. In fact, more people preferred to throw javelin, which I believe are less effective, less accurate, and have less range, than shoot an arrow.
 
I can get accurate with a thrown weapon in an afternoon; accuracy with a bow takes considerable practice. Javelins are easier to prepare, easier to use, not to mention more deadly and effective against opponents with decent armor and especially shields. Indeed, most javelin use in history was based more around destroying your enemies shields than killing anyone. Bows are more complex to create and maintain, arrows far more expensive in terms of time and resources (ever made a straight arrow? How about 600?) and in terms of dead enemies on the field are in no way superior, especially in terms of how successful your army is save in battles like sieges. In a field battle a decent shield wall will almost completely negate the effectiveness of your archers, who've just become an expensive group of lightly armored spear-fodder. Javelins were used on battlefields up into the gunpowder era, for good reason. Prior to firearms and with the notable exception of the Huns and Mongols battles were generally settled by infantry. Archers helped break cavalry charges or soften up closing enemies but javelins made your infantry more effective when when it came down to the killing each other part.

None of the bows of this era are going to be particularly well made, even more so the arrows. At least not by 14th century standards - long bows, etc. Javelins, by comparison, make your infantry more effective - stripping the enemy of their shields. IRL, unlike the uber ninja blocking skillz of M&B/Warband, blocking with a weapon is difficult and risky when compared to an opponent with a shield.

I admit - I like how bows work out in this mod, I like it a lot. It's historically accurate and far more realistic. Archers shine against light cavalry and in sieges, both for and against. Their impact on the battlefield however is minimal.
 
well, bows in that time was pretty unaccurate. The bows in native are actually way too accurate to fit to its own time period.

Currently I play a dedicated archer in this mod with my army consisting of 70% archers and 30% heavy infantry with shields. However, I do not ride about when firing arrows, I stand still with my horse behind the archer lines firing into the pile of enemies. That way I can easier see what is happening to my men and command them accordingly.
 
This mod has signi9ficantly reduced weapon  damage all across the board. I believe this was not intended to be more "realistic" but to encourage a certain kind of fighting, mainly longer and more difficult melee.

Regarding weapon accuracy, even with low accuracy you can get very accurate. It takes a lot more (character) skill level though and the reticule will never close all the way (but arrows will fly to the center).
 
The Short Bow is the best bow I've used in the mod so far, and I've tried them all of all qualities. Although I still think that making your men bowmen is not a good idea. It's better to keep upgrading them to infantry, because I believe javelins were more widely used during this time than bows. Also, javelins in Brytenwalda is awesome! I never used javelins in vanilla M&B, however javelins are fun and actually useful in this mod.

So my tip: Skip the archers, if you're not using troops from the Wales part of the map that can be upgradwed to Saethwydd archers. Those are actually pretty good. The javelins make up for a lack of archers any time.
 
I have to agree on that Brody. When encountering enemies with shields archers mainly dont stand a chance since shields in this mod are pretty powerful when it comes to endurance. (even with my war axe Ive never broken a shield)

Anyone remember what colours the Welsh countries have? (not so easy to differentiate the names untill one has played this mod a long time)
 
There are so many colours, man...
But I can safely say that the wales are located just a bit north of the Mierce, in around the centre of the map. Factions like Dyred and Gwent have that kind of archers
 
On the loading screen for when the Mod actually starts, not starting a new game or anything like that, you will see a map of the Country of Briton (as we know it) though decided in their true form for each of the Nations that exist now and of the factions, Wales is located in the bottom left and the West part of the Isle, Wales is a funny 'country' its got two parts which share no similar boundaries but are still considered one whole...
 
Ser Pounce-A-Lot said:
There are so many colours, man...
But I can safely say that the wales are located just a bit north of the Mierce, in around the centre of the map. Factions like Dyred and Gwent have that kind of archers

Wales is located in the southwesternmost part of the british mainland, just before you cross over to Ireland. I think they're called Desmumu
 
Wales would be the kingdoms of Gwent, Gwynedd, etc..that sort of Peninsula directly below the Isle of Mann (Ynys Manau) and above Dumnonia/Cornwall.
It's in Britannia, not Hibernia.
 
Too tell the truth, you mainly need to hire from villages that are from the yellow lands all the way up the the dark blue lands for those archer units, as they are all counted under the Brition Units...
 
The welsh bowmen are pretty good and I find that if you give bows to some of your companions and upgrade them with the right skills they do pretty well.
 
I feel like this mod gets the bow accuracy better than native or other mods. The longbow exists in the timeframe of the mod but an effective longbowman takes years to blossom because the bowman must be able to pull the pull weight of the bow. That takes a considerable amount of strength. Then the bowman must be able to aim and fire the bow precisely to hit a target. This was not done with the sniper like accuracy you can get with a bow in native or other mods.

The genius of the English was that they were able to organize their rank and fodder to be able to provide so many of these trained bowman in the 14th century but the tradition comes out of Wales and is reflected in game with the Welsh second tier bow unit.   

As a character you can get great with a bow, you just can't shoot through the shields like you can in other flavors of Mount and Blade. The problem is that your character has to advance to the point you have  a solid power draw and a high enough archery skill to effectively use the weapon.  Then you as a player need to learn how to judge lead, drop, etc.  In short you and your character need some skill.

As for using bowmen, I've had some success using them at the left of my infantry line. Advancing them behind my opponents line prior to contact (I'll put my cavalry on the other side).  My archers get flanking fire and the enemy either turns to face them (showing their back to my infantry) or gets shot in the back.

The presence of enemy cavalry can make this strategy costly though.
 
Gah its not just the Welsh people, they are under the Brition Treetroop, the Yellow Faction allows you to get them too!!!
 
Lets not forget that it wasn't long before this that Atilla marched through much of Europe (by coincidence I happened to read Bede's history of England before finding this mod) and those horse archers did pretty well :wink:

For an example....

Dark Age Wooden Bows - An Introduction.

By ULFRIC,

Edited by Russ Scott.

  This short article covers archaeological finds of wooden bows from
Northern Europe, dated C4th. to C10th. AD.

NYDAM, Schleswig-Holsten; Ancient Denmark.
Over thirty bows were found in a C4th. to C5th. lake or bog deposit. These bows were mostly made of Yew although one or two were made of Fir. Anaerobic conditions have meant that the bows have been preserved remarkably well. They are of ovoid or rounded 'D' section, tapering from the middle to pointed ends. Some were equipped with nocks of horn, others with nocks of sharp iron. Nocks that were cut into the bow, were mostly cut into the side, "Side-Nocked".

On average the bows are about 6' long, whilst one example measured in at 6' 6"! None of the bows show grip bindings, although some were bound with thread at intervals along the bow limbs. The estimated draw weights for the Nydam bows have been put at 45 to 65 pounds at the appropriate draw lengths.

OBERFLATCH, Germany.
Over a dozen bows were found in the Allemanic & Frankish graves, probably dateable to the C7th. Most of the bows are made of Yew, with at least one specimen of Elm. Soil conditions were not ideal for organic deposits and so the bows are badly preserved.

However, It has been possible to reconstruct the typical Allemanic bow. It appears that they were constructed of a complex section, with a thick rigid handle and a polygonal limb cross section. These bow limbs had a rounded back, straight sides and a triangular belly.

Lengths of three recently re-examined bows range in length from 5' 8" to 6'4". All the bows were side-nocked about 2" from the ends. Their draw weights have been estimated at between 45 and 65 pounds.

HAITHABU, (Heddeby) Ancient Denmark.
A well-preserved Yew bow was found in waterlogged conditions dated to the C9th -C10th. The bow has a thick ovoid section, 6'6" long and tapering from the centre to flared flat ends. There is one side nock on the upper limb only, the string presumably tightly bound at the lower end. A bow fragment from Ballinderry in Ireland, exhibits a similar flared tip.

The draw weight of the Haithabu bow has been estimated at between 70 and 90 pounds at over 2'4"

CONCLUSION
Most Dark-age bows so far recovered from northern Europe are of yew wood, with the occasional example of Elm and Fir. The commonest type is a simple tapered stave around six feet long with an ovoid section. Horn and iron nocks existed but are rare and do not resemble either modern or Victorian nocks.

COMPOSITE BOWS
Another type existed alongside the simple wooden bow and this was the Composite bow made of wood, sinew and bone or antler. The average Viking of our period would not have used one of these bows. There is however, archaeological evidence for them at eastern Viking sites, such as Birka and for use in the Norman arsenal. They will be the subject of a future article.

A 65lb draw weight is nothing to laugh at, and they had composite bows as well.  My guess is the mod underestimates the effectiveness of archers.
 
Oyclo said:
A 65lb draw weight is nothing to laugh at, and they had composite bows as well.  My guess is the mod underestimates the effectiveness of archers.
As to accuracy, most people significantly overestimate the effectiveness of war bows. Archers on the battle field were shooting in the general direction of the enemy and even in high arch trajectories, not sniping at individuals. Skirmishing from ranges of 20 meters is another story and did not use the highest loading bows. Most ancient armies gave little emphasis to bows because of the limited effectiveness against organized armies equipped with big shields. The avid bow users were either mounted, or specialized in small scale fighting where flanking, surprise, short ranges and not facing shield walls made the bow valuable.
Elves were not using bows in the dark ages.

As to damage, yes this mod downplays arrow damage. This is because M&B mechanics make archers very powerful and the intention (as I understand it) is to shift the emphasis to melee and precursor (thrown) weapons - more fitting to the period. On the other hand, M&B has the power draw skill that adds huge amounts of damage - 15% per points. You can only have 4 points higher than the skill requirement to add to damage, but if the requirement is 6, you can theoretically have 10 power draw and add 150% to damage (2.5 times the base damage).
Armor is not effective enough against arrows in M&B. Example: head strike gives double damage.  Against a decent metal helmet a blunt strike from a broad weapon would still do lots of damage and this is a good place to smack. A slicing weapon will  do almost non and a thrusting weapon is far more likely to get a glancing hit and a juicy curse than to find a way in through the eyes. Large damage potential for an arrow, yes, low probability of materializing. Same thing for iron graves on the legs for those dreaming about snipping at the feet under the shield. These two regions got the benefits of a plate armor long before the real plate armors made the entire shield obsolete - even against archers.
 
Oyclo said:
My guess is the mod underestimates the effectiveness of archers.
I don't think the reduced damage ratings of bows in this mod so much reflect them being especially ineffective during this time period, but the fact that weilding a bow effectively takes skill and practice. That, in turn, is represented by the fact that you need to spend way more skill and weapons proficiency points in order to be a good archer, while the javelin is something that you can pretty well just pick up and learn as you go. Doesn't seem exactly fair, but the aspects of real life rarely are neatly balanced á la arcade.

Although if you seriously can't hit **** with 6 power draw and nearly 200 proficiency even at point-blank range, maybe the bows in this mod do need some buffing up, at least in the terms of accuracy. With the same skills you could probably hit a guy in the head from 40 yards, over a shield, in Native.
 
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