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Outlawed
Sergeant Knight
I recall reading that even though archers could fire at an even faster pace than you mentioned, they still wouldn't even come close to that rate in battle. Battles lasted for day sometimes. Most archers would stick to 6-8 arrows actually, but I'm keeping it at 10 for the fastest of bows, and 8.something for the heavier ones.
Moving on to the armor issue. Swords actually don't do anything against any type of maille when you look at cuts.
When you look at stabbing however, swords do very well against even the best types of rivetted maille. If you even look at things like pointy awlpikes and the such, they will simply penetrate the maille at often times causing a deep pierce into the target without breaking links. The sword becomes very hard to pull out at that moment, but since hopefully your target is dead it wouldn't be an issue. This is why I'm considering breakable weapons as well. Things like this where the sword becomes useless...etc.
So far, I haven't given much thought into it but I did have a basic idea of how I would do things.
Cloth armors on one hand and Leather armors on the other both differ greatly from Maille obviously, and they have good differences between each other. They are going to have differences between them that almost account to native variance between armors. What I have noticed from reading so far is that Swords (European style) pierce everything better than they cut it. If you could get a stab in and hit, you would hit flesh almost every time. This is why I've increased stab damage for pretty much everything and changed arrows to cut.
If I was to tell you how the armors would be, it would be something along these lines:
Basic -> Best
Peasant Cloth - simple cloth not worn or designed for battle. You would cut through it, stab through it and shoot your arrows/bolt through it no problem.
Light Jack/Padding - if you were a poor levy, you would get yourself a light jack. They often wore this under maille, but it actually acts as a great shock absorber against strikes of different angles. It might hinder the force of stabs and arrows a little, but it still gets penetrated. It also can be cut through easily, but might give you an extra strike before you go down.
Heavy Jack/Gambeson - the Gambeson/Heavy padding was also worn underneath maille by the richer soldiers. On its own, it would get penetrated by arrows and by stabs, but actually did pretty well against things like one handed European swords in terms of receiving cuts. It absorbs all the power of the strike as well, so you wouldn't feel a badly placed strike against you.
Light Padding with different variations of low-mid maille (haven't done proper research on maille yet so I don't know the 'classes' they had and how the differed) - Assuming this maille would be in lower quality than small ringed, rivetted 6 in 1 maille, this type of armor would do very well in stopping cuts. If you're unlucky, a link might break upon contact, but chances are you're going to survive a cut and feel a little bruise. Against arrows, pending. I'm waiting on a tester to try out different bows with different heads against rivetted 6 in 1 maille and I will base my archery damage scale on that. According to him though, you'd expect it to penetrate this type of maille most of the time because it can be compared to butted maille. Against sharp point swords though, this can't do much.
Here you'd have the heavier types of padding with better maille, and they will take many loads of cuts. Against stab they still don't do as well as you'd think and are penetrated very well by sharp pointed swords. Against arrows, I'm pending here as well. I'm guessing arrows will penetrate successfully half of the time, but these are guesses based on what the tester had told me.
Finally you'd have armor that has 2 layers of maille and more padding. I think this is where we read descriptions of Crusader knights taking arrows like pin cushions, but again, this is speculation. In terms of how this stands against cuts, its pretty obvious that you cannot through this with a normal sword, let alone a sword designed for cutting; it wont cut it. In terms of stabbing, I think it will stop certain stabs. Also I don't know if this maille did exist, but it was pointed out that it did. So hopefully, when I'm done with my midterm this week, before I do more faction research I'll go ahead and do armor research.
That is all for now =p
Moving on to the armor issue. Swords actually don't do anything against any type of maille when you look at cuts.
When you look at stabbing however, swords do very well against even the best types of rivetted maille. If you even look at things like pointy awlpikes and the such, they will simply penetrate the maille at often times causing a deep pierce into the target without breaking links. The sword becomes very hard to pull out at that moment, but since hopefully your target is dead it wouldn't be an issue. This is why I'm considering breakable weapons as well. Things like this where the sword becomes useless...etc.
So far, I haven't given much thought into it but I did have a basic idea of how I would do things.
Cloth armors on one hand and Leather armors on the other both differ greatly from Maille obviously, and they have good differences between each other. They are going to have differences between them that almost account to native variance between armors. What I have noticed from reading so far is that Swords (European style) pierce everything better than they cut it. If you could get a stab in and hit, you would hit flesh almost every time. This is why I've increased stab damage for pretty much everything and changed arrows to cut.
If I was to tell you how the armors would be, it would be something along these lines:
Basic -> Best
Peasant Cloth - simple cloth not worn or designed for battle. You would cut through it, stab through it and shoot your arrows/bolt through it no problem.
Light Jack/Padding - if you were a poor levy, you would get yourself a light jack. They often wore this under maille, but it actually acts as a great shock absorber against strikes of different angles. It might hinder the force of stabs and arrows a little, but it still gets penetrated. It also can be cut through easily, but might give you an extra strike before you go down.
Heavy Jack/Gambeson - the Gambeson/Heavy padding was also worn underneath maille by the richer soldiers. On its own, it would get penetrated by arrows and by stabs, but actually did pretty well against things like one handed European swords in terms of receiving cuts. It absorbs all the power of the strike as well, so you wouldn't feel a badly placed strike against you.
Light Padding with different variations of low-mid maille (haven't done proper research on maille yet so I don't know the 'classes' they had and how the differed) - Assuming this maille would be in lower quality than small ringed, rivetted 6 in 1 maille, this type of armor would do very well in stopping cuts. If you're unlucky, a link might break upon contact, but chances are you're going to survive a cut and feel a little bruise. Against arrows, pending. I'm waiting on a tester to try out different bows with different heads against rivetted 6 in 1 maille and I will base my archery damage scale on that. According to him though, you'd expect it to penetrate this type of maille most of the time because it can be compared to butted maille. Against sharp point swords though, this can't do much.
Here you'd have the heavier types of padding with better maille, and they will take many loads of cuts. Against stab they still don't do as well as you'd think and are penetrated very well by sharp pointed swords. Against arrows, I'm pending here as well. I'm guessing arrows will penetrate successfully half of the time, but these are guesses based on what the tester had told me.
Finally you'd have armor that has 2 layers of maille and more padding. I think this is where we read descriptions of Crusader knights taking arrows like pin cushions, but again, this is speculation. In terms of how this stands against cuts, its pretty obvious that you cannot through this with a normal sword, let alone a sword designed for cutting; it wont cut it. In terms of stabbing, I think it will stop certain stabs. Also I don't know if this maille did exist, but it was pointed out that it did. So hopefully, when I'm done with my midterm this week, before I do more faction research I'll go ahead and do armor research.
That is all for now =p
The only way you can penetrate maille is with a very narrow point to slip between links, and the smaller the rings and more dense the weave, the more narrow the point needs to be. If you're trying to get through 6 in 1 weave maille with very small rings, it's near impossible. You can't shear the rings with a thrust like people seem to think. Most swords of this era do not have very fine points, and would never be able to penetrate maille by slipping through the rings. Most spears even did not have a fine enough point to slip between 4 in 1 weave maille. Bodkins never broke rings, but instead got the tip in the rings and stretch them open, which is really only possible if the weave is not too dense. I urge you to actually read that information I provided you guys several pages back instead of just making unfounded statements.
I can provide you basics on maille if you like.
-All maille was riveted, so anything you see about butted maille breaking easily is falsification of data.
-maille used much smaller rings than what is seen in modern recreations. The smaller the rings, the harder it was to penetrate, because of the weapon or arrow point could not slip between the rings, it would not have a chance of stretching them open.
-4 in 1 mail was very common for lower value maille and was less dense than other weaves.
-Maille was not easily sheared, even with thrusts, the only way to make it though the rings was to stretch them open with a very fine point, which most weapons of the era represented in this mod don't have.
-6 in 1 weave was extremely dense, as it uses twice as many rings as 4 in 1 maille, this is the probably "double maille" which is refered to in numerous historical accounts. It was expensive to make, and was probably only extensively used by knights.
-"double maille", or 6 in 1 weave, is often credited with being an arrow stopper even.
-double layers of maille was just a speculation I offered, but probably didn't exist, 6 in 1 weave is outstanding protection as it is and is what is likely refereed to in accounts of crusders taking arrows like pincushions.
I can provide you basics on maille if you like.
-All maille was riveted, so anything you see about butted maille breaking easily is falsification of data.
-maille used much smaller rings than what is seen in modern recreations. The smaller the rings, the harder it was to penetrate, because of the weapon or arrow point could not slip between the rings, it would not have a chance of stretching them open.
-4 in 1 mail was very common for lower value maille and was less dense than other weaves.
-Maille was not easily sheared, even with thrusts, the only way to make it though the rings was to stretch them open with a very fine point, which most weapons of the era represented in this mod don't have.
-6 in 1 weave was extremely dense, as it uses twice as many rings as 4 in 1 maille, this is the probably "double maille" which is refered to in numerous historical accounts. It was expensive to make, and was probably only extensively used by knights.
-"double maille", or 6 in 1 weave, is often credited with being an arrow stopper even.
-double layers of maille was just a speculation I offered, but probably didn't exist, 6 in 1 weave is outstanding protection as it is and is what is likely refereed to in accounts of crusders taking arrows like pincushions.
Sahran
Grandmaster Knight
Theme wise Cilicia Armenia is kind of like the Vaegirs are now in my opinion. At least earlier on before Cilicia Armenia's pride and joy was entirely its cavalry. In this period the hard data I could get from the Fatimid's Armenian troops pointed to their great skill at archery, and that the Armenian slave-warrior cavalry seemed to have used the bow as well. Having to set up an expatriate state of sorts would naturally hurt that ability to predominate with cavalry, but they are still a valuable part of the army.
DBM's list for them has the numbers of Armenian cavalry at 8-24, footmen to 20-56, archers to 12-20. Doing research for the Crusaders has Osprey saying they had 4,000 cavalry and 10,000 infantry circa the early to mid 12th century with again reinforcing the value of infantry archers.
I don't think by this period Armenia would have had much Western influence compared to later on in the 13th and 14th centuries, but we'll allow for a mild presence of it with the equipment of some of the higher troops featuring some norman helmets/kettle hats.
Cilicia Armenia Local/Feudal Units
===================================================================
===================================================================
Cilicia Armenia Mercenary Units
===================================================================
Fairly self explanatory
===================================================================
Cilicia Armenia Special Units
===================================================================
They'll be getting probably the same order troops as the Crusader States, but probably at lower rates or less total. I'll determine those order units when I do the Crusader States.
DBM's list for them has the numbers of Armenian cavalry at 8-24, footmen to 20-56, archers to 12-20. Doing research for the Crusaders has Osprey saying they had 4,000 cavalry and 10,000 infantry circa the early to mid 12th century with again reinforcing the value of infantry archers.
I don't think by this period Armenia would have had much Western influence compared to later on in the 13th and 14th centuries, but we'll allow for a mild presence of it with the equipment of some of the higher troops featuring some norman helmets/kettle hats.
Cilicia Armenia Local/Feudal Units
===================================================================
Shinakan - "Peasant" was one of the many terms I've seen applied to the peasantry of Armenia, part of the non free Anazat class. Shinakan seems to be the one term that can be used to exclusively refer to the peasants amongst the Anazat, so that's what I am going with here. They are woodsmen, hillmen, skirmishers of no armor and poor equipment.
Ramik Archers - Ramik, "common people", is a term applied to the Anazats or non free artisans, merchants, and peasants of the cities and countryside. These are the signature Armenian archers, unarmored but with a shield & helmet, bow and sword. Good, solid light archers.
Ramik Footmen - irregular hillmen type soldiers, armed with javelins and hodgepodge of weaponry.
Anazat Bowmen/Spearmen/Militiamen - I'm appropriating the broader Anazat term to mean slightly better than the Ramik or the Shinakans, being the bread and butter light to medium armored infantry. Bowmen have bows, Spearmen have spears, Militiamen have axes/swords.
Azatapayiks - "Noble Infantry". I'm presuming here some Azats were poor enough to not possess a horse, and here's where they end up. They'll be armed with swords/axes/maces, shield, and heavy-ish armor.
============================================================================
Ramikspas Horsemen - Ramik being "plebians" or the peasantry, spas seeming to be "cavalry'. Saw a reference to them being capable of being on horseback, so applying it here. Hillmen/rural tribal Armenians on horseback, no armor, just javelins/bows/spears/axes/ect. Another optional name is Ramik Aspatakawor - peasant mounted raiders
Anazat Mounted Retainers - Anazat were the "Non free" of Armenia, the artisans, merchants, and peasantry of city and rural community. Richest might be able to serve in the cavalry, and here I'm presuming the retinue of the Azats is not going to be more Azats (which is like a Knight serving a Knight) but rather 'warrior non nobles'. Still not well armored. Soft armor or no armor but helmets, shields, equipment I'm not sure about 100% but will probably continue to be skirmisher-friendly. Another optional name is Anazatazawr Retainers (Non free forces/troops), or replace retainer with retinue.
Azat(agund) Horsemen/Horse Archers - Azats or "Free men" (gund = corps/detachment) were the low nobility of Armenia, equivalent to a knight or I suppose Emir. They provided their own troops, and made up the bulk of the noble cavalry. Western styles hadn't really invested in Armenia as much as it would in the 13th and 14th century (Especially I think after Leo I) so these guys are more similar to Byzantine, Arab, or Turkish traditions. Medium armor (Mail hauberks and such), shield, sword, lance or bow. Yippie!
Sepuh - "Nobleman" or "Gentleman", it's a term of varied definition, but the most reliable source (Encyclopedia Iranica) has it cited as appearing to denote all members of great families (nakharars) other than the heads. In other words, high nobility. Heavy chainmail or oriental mail and lamellar/scale combinations, armed with a mixture of lance/spear, sword or mace and bow. Less Knight and more Cataphract/Mamluk. I'm not crazy about the name "Sepuh Horsemen", but I don't like calling them "Sepuh Knights" or "Sepuh Nobles".
Best other options are (Might be bastardizing Armenian here):
Sepuhazawr - zawr being forces, troops, army, so "Noble families troops/forces" so to speak
Sepuhapah / Sepuhapahak / Sepuhapahakapan - all meaning "Noble Families guard/guard corps/garrison (ignore that last one)"
Sepuhagund - Noble Families contingents/corps/detachment, problem being Azatagund already uses it.
Azatahamaharz OR Nakharar Hamaharz - This is purely conjecture, intended to represent the natural presence of a royal bodyguard corps for the king or the rulers of the great houses of Armenia. The first term is meant to translate as "Noble Bodyguard (Hamaharz)", the latter into being Nakharar's Hamaharz. They'd have cloth barded horses, swords, spears/lances, shields, bows, and heavy armor. But I don't want the Armenians fielding anything more than a tiny number of these guys, and perhaps to even remove it from the upgrade tree and make it only spawn with the Armenian King and other major Armenian NPCs.
Ramik Archers - Ramik, "common people", is a term applied to the Anazats or non free artisans, merchants, and peasants of the cities and countryside. These are the signature Armenian archers, unarmored but with a shield & helmet, bow and sword. Good, solid light archers.
Ramik Footmen - irregular hillmen type soldiers, armed with javelins and hodgepodge of weaponry.
Anazat Bowmen/Spearmen/Militiamen - I'm appropriating the broader Anazat term to mean slightly better than the Ramik or the Shinakans, being the bread and butter light to medium armored infantry. Bowmen have bows, Spearmen have spears, Militiamen have axes/swords.
Azatapayiks - "Noble Infantry". I'm presuming here some Azats were poor enough to not possess a horse, and here's where they end up. They'll be armed with swords/axes/maces, shield, and heavy-ish armor.
============================================================================
Ramikspas Horsemen - Ramik being "plebians" or the peasantry, spas seeming to be "cavalry'. Saw a reference to them being capable of being on horseback, so applying it here. Hillmen/rural tribal Armenians on horseback, no armor, just javelins/bows/spears/axes/ect. Another optional name is Ramik Aspatakawor - peasant mounted raiders
Anazat Mounted Retainers - Anazat were the "Non free" of Armenia, the artisans, merchants, and peasantry of city and rural community. Richest might be able to serve in the cavalry, and here I'm presuming the retinue of the Azats is not going to be more Azats (which is like a Knight serving a Knight) but rather 'warrior non nobles'. Still not well armored. Soft armor or no armor but helmets, shields, equipment I'm not sure about 100% but will probably continue to be skirmisher-friendly. Another optional name is Anazatazawr Retainers (Non free forces/troops), or replace retainer with retinue.
Azat(agund) Horsemen/Horse Archers - Azats or "Free men" (gund = corps/detachment) were the low nobility of Armenia, equivalent to a knight or I suppose Emir. They provided their own troops, and made up the bulk of the noble cavalry. Western styles hadn't really invested in Armenia as much as it would in the 13th and 14th century (Especially I think after Leo I) so these guys are more similar to Byzantine, Arab, or Turkish traditions. Medium armor (Mail hauberks and such), shield, sword, lance or bow. Yippie!
Sepuh - "Nobleman" or "Gentleman", it's a term of varied definition, but the most reliable source (Encyclopedia Iranica) has it cited as appearing to denote all members of great families (nakharars) other than the heads. In other words, high nobility. Heavy chainmail or oriental mail and lamellar/scale combinations, armed with a mixture of lance/spear, sword or mace and bow. Less Knight and more Cataphract/Mamluk. I'm not crazy about the name "Sepuh Horsemen", but I don't like calling them "Sepuh Knights" or "Sepuh Nobles".
Best other options are (Might be bastardizing Armenian here):
Sepuhazawr - zawr being forces, troops, army, so "Noble families troops/forces" so to speak
Sepuhapah / Sepuhapahak / Sepuhapahakapan - all meaning "Noble Families guard/guard corps/garrison (ignore that last one)"
Sepuhagund - Noble Families contingents/corps/detachment, problem being Azatagund already uses it.
Azatahamaharz OR Nakharar Hamaharz - This is purely conjecture, intended to represent the natural presence of a royal bodyguard corps for the king or the rulers of the great houses of Armenia. The first term is meant to translate as "Noble Bodyguard (Hamaharz)", the latter into being Nakharar's Hamaharz. They'd have cloth barded horses, swords, spears/lances, shields, bows, and heavy armor. But I don't want the Armenians fielding anything more than a tiny number of these guys, and perhaps to even remove it from the upgrade tree and make it only spawn with the Armenian King and other major Armenian NPCs.
===================================================================
Cilicia Armenia Mercenary Units
===================================================================
Fairly self explanatory
===================================================================
Cilicia Armenia Special Units
===================================================================
They'll be getting probably the same order troops as the Crusader States, but probably at lower rates or less total. I'll determine those order units when I do the Crusader States.
TheSecondHorseman
Recruit
do you need (more) testers? 
TheSecondHorseman
Recruit
oh, and I want to help researching too. (because I suck in coding. LOL) 
(because I suck in coding. LOL) 
Outlawed
Sergeant Knight
TheSecondHorseman said:oh, and I want to help researching too.
If you're serious enough it would be nice to have a new researcher working on cities, their populations, their makeup, historical buildings...etc. Research for WTR is tedious I'll tell you that though, it has to be at least quoting something that has a primary source in there somewhere. Wikipedia and the such doesn't cut it, well, most of the time =p
hit888 said:My prayers have been answered a mod where i can eliminate all non believers at last
P.S sorry got a bit carried awaybut any way good luck on your mod
lmao. While slaying infidels, one cannot be carried away! xp
Outlawed
Sergeant Knight
Al_Mansur said:
Yes we have. They looked great but the models needed to be proportioned as well as adding hair to the turkish helmets. I'll simply take native ponytails, cut it and attach to the helmet then make slight adjustments.
We will be finishing research soon hopefully and then we will move to finishing up the item/troops roster before moving on to scenes.
BattleOfValmy
balsha said:
wat
Are you talking about Homo Neanderthalensis?
