ares007 said:
eh... I don't know about
re-coding 
I've actually discussed things with Ron before on the other forum (whatever it is) and I must admit that concerning
some matters, he is not an expert. For the most part, yes, he generally knows what he's talking about and is generally quite a nice guy to talk to. On the other hand, he seems to be more knowledgeable about Asian Swordsmanship rather than European. Although the fundamentals are generally all the same, there are some significant differences that he doesn't seem to appreciate (and you can
only appreciate if you study the art as the Medieval/Renaissance Masters taught with the realization of what context in which the art was employed). That is why I'm somewhat skeptical about certain things he says/advocates.
For example, he seems fundamentally apposed to the idea of halfswording with a longsword (or other "sharp" swords). He seems so familiar with the heavily over-sharpened Katana that he thinks all swords were light-sabers and could never be held with a hand.
The European sword, however, was designed to last a life-time or more. It was sharpened to an "apple-seed" edge that would preserve the edge for much longer (in other words, the edge was convex rather than concave like a knife). This means that when the edge was intentionally drawn across or forcefully applied to a target, then it would inflict injuries. However, as long as the blade is not sliding across something, it is not cutting. There is more that I could say to further support my point, but that is enough for now.
That being said, he is definitely more knowledgeable than most people I've confronted here on these forums, and he seems to be a sensible person in general. I would be glad for any help he could give. That bleeding script sounds interesting too.
Maybe too much to ask. Hopefully adding code to improve things is possible.
Would I recognize your username on there? I would wonder whether Ron doesn't know as much about European swords, though I believe he knows enough for accurate depictions (not super accurate, as someone who knows European swords might be able to get). If it's that Ron's more understanding of Asian weapons, and you of European, I mostly see this as all the more reason for two experts to put heads together (in a non-aggressive fashion) and create a superior product than either could give.
Is it all right if I ask about the particular issues you are sceptical of, out of curiosity? I'm guessing it'll be over my head, though.
He does seem opposed to the idea, I agree--though I don't know enough of the matter to say either way for it's effectiveness. I would guess that while it'd be completely useless for stabbing through an armour's thickness of steel plate, it'd likely be an improvement for stabbing through mail. I do think you exaggerate somewhat with Ron's understanding of European blades, however.
That does sound like amazing longevity, though I don't know how long the Katana's lifespan would be (I assume both would need caring one a while to avoid rust). I always wondered how half-swording was possible, without cutting the hands badly, and assumed you needed metal gauntlets--it's very amazing to hear that you can hold it without cutting yourself (much)... though perhaps MORE amazing that you can swing or stab a sword with a grip on that thin metal bar, and not slide your hands. I'm very interested on the fundamentals of half-swording, and other fighting, both for general perspective and for use in games/stories, if it doesn't take up too much of your time.
I mentioned this thread in a post. When he notices it, he may become interested in helping. I'm not sure yet.
ares007 said:
In the crowded chaos of close-quarters combat, you generally don't want big sweeping cuts. These kinds of cuts have the tendency to catch on environmental obstacles, hack into your brother-in-arms, and etc. Hanko Dobringer in his 1389 fechtbuch, tells us to always take the shortest route to the opponent and do not do wide ungainly strikes as the "play masters" do. There may be an application of a wide "street-cleaner" strike, but it's not very often.
The animations I aim to put in will still have range and power, but the stroke will be diagonal and focused to the front.
Whether we make the huge weapons slower or not depends on how animations affect balance. Right now, the huge 2-handed axes seem faster than they are because people utilize the "lolspin" technique. The animations will aim to make that much less of a problem.
Also, I will be removing the ability to wield the long-axe family of weapons as pure 2-handed weapons. They will be polearm only.
Oh yes of course, I'd never recommend doing that--just meant that a wide swing is occasionally useful (rarely). Might be forced to do it, against heavy armour, where you need all the force and leverage you can muster... would be interesting to have swords inflict Blunt Damage against heavy armour, with a possibility of knock-down should enough force be delivered.
Note deeply that with the directional-blocking system, having it too hard to tell the difference between attacks could get tedious. VERY tedious. Just a warning as something to consider, though a realistic-extent of being hard to tell one swing from another wouldn't be so bad (just that when you have a 25% chance of picking the right direction, that I'd get annoyed).
Ron has commented that big weapons move as though in slow motion. You seem to have done some training with swords, so I'm not sure if you did any tests with big weapons. Problem isn't going fast, I expect. Rather, keeping your weapon in your hands, and keeping your body upright above the ground, after a fast swing.
It does appeal as more of a polearm then a twohanded weapon. What are the exact differences game-wise, though?
ares007 said:
I plan on having the player hold the polearms further down the haft so that they gain more range. Also, the animations will be more realistic/historically-accurate. Polearms will also be balanced in other ways.
Though, it seems that polearms can't be held too far at the end of the shaft, since humans can't bear that much weight of leverage. May want to consider it a while, depending on the polearm used.
ares007 said:
All you need is 5 inches into someone to kill them. In half-swording, you've still got about a foot of blade to pierce the body. That is enough to inflict sever injury. What is most important in dealing damage with a thrust is the placement of the thrust (in a vulnerable/lethal area or not) and whether or not the thrust is strong enough to get through whatever might be in the way. Half-swording has advantages in both of these areas.
Actually, against very good armor, half-swording is generally preferable to normal cuts because normal blunt cuts don't do **** to very good armor. Against plate armor, a normal cut would more likely damage the edge of the sword than anything else. With a gauntlet/vambrace, a knight could actually block a sword blow with his forearm. Now with mail, a normal cut will deal damage to someone, but halfsword will still apply the power needed to deal a more deeply penetrating thrust. So unless you're fighting someone with plate armor or partial plate, then half-swording and standard hand position are not really better than each other but rather more effective in different positions.
Another important application of half-swording is the leveraging ability. Even without armor, in a close situation, half-swording could be effectively employed to take someone down. So that's another thing I want to do with it. I want the swings to have an ok chance of knocking someone down to simulate this.
Yes, but this game is doing it with Hit Points, so it's a matter of working out realistic logistics. Ron's RCM theory works out great in practice, so discussion with him seems good ideaness. A foot is still quite a bit, though.. .so assuming you can get all of that in through whatever armour, you're looking at a good percentage of the original damage in piercing.
I do think half-swording would be preferable, if well used, even if mainly for the striking with the hand-guard. Normal cuts are only useful if you do huge power-swings, to try and bruise your opponent under the armour. Appears to me we see more of the same idea than I first believed. Was wondering if you meant half-swording was a handy way to kill plate-clad knights xD (well, it may be more handy for dealing them in some ways, but it's mostly trying to hammer them as hard as you can, unless you get some weird chance to stab through a visible weak-point). Good to hear from someone who'd know that metal vambraces actually can block/deflect blade--I pla to have that for a particular character.
Yeah, Ron accredited the leverage also. Hope knock-down chances can be edited, with WB.
ares007 said:
Thanks. I hope I don't sound too much like a arrogant bastard
Oh no, not at all. You sound smart, and reasonable. Not necessarily 100% right--but I rarely trust people who can sound 100% right
. Hope to get the best possible result from you, with whatever help I can arrange to be supplied.
ares007 said:
Better AI would definitely make for a better more realistic game. I'll definitely consider it. But it is not a top priority as of now. Right now, my top priority is animations.
What is the next priority, after improved animations? I'd be interested in a "Realism Compilation Mod" where you combine all sorts of systems for realism. Realistic bandit spawning, gold/princes system, weapon stats, animations, AI, formations, etc..
ares007 said:
I don't think that it's too complex. I think that the problem is some other fundamental problems either got neglected or added. For example: lolspinning makes huge axes seem unnaturally fast. When a pike point is 2 meters behind you, it can still somehow stab you. If you step up into to hugging distance of someone swinging a long-axe, you still somehow get cut in half. Things like that cause the game to feel unnatural.
I HAAAAAATE the pike thing. I can put up with spinning to speed up strikes, but I despise the workings of weapons so that the wooden shaft of an axe of spear acts like a razor sharp blade.
ares007 said:
Oh and BTW, it seems like Taleworlds is working on matching the weapon models with the game lengths
YAAAAY!!! That's the other thing I despised... weapons being longer then they look. It leads to the question of why have different weapons.
Thanks for the discussion!
