A Debate to End All Debate - Two Handed Swords Too Fast

Users who are viewing this thread

Amroth said:
othr said:
WTF not a single cut on that tree trunk in that video!!! And that's exactly what you should get for spamming in M&B, lots of noise, little effect!

Here is a video of a REAL fight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj1hBxyw2pw

and on a more serious note, this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFAKTjOQJwQ&NR=1 between 1:12 and 1:15, look how the guy loses balance after a powerful swing.  Loss of balance = dead, where is this loss of balance?!
ares007 said:
(note, the sword is blunt, but is otherwise weighted and balanced just like a medieval longsword)
You didn't read that part?  Also, the man in question in the time frame you give is rather rotund and seems to be out of shape.

No I really only skimmed through the original post, I instead just watched the videos he attached (yeah I'm sort of lazy)...  right he's fat and his center of gravity is close to the ground.  A tall dude like me would have a harder time recovering from the swing a) I'd be able to put much more power into the weapon b) my center of gravity is much higher than his and c) people in M&B are not spamming using bastard (aka long) swords but great swords.

And such fast, weak strikes, hmm, blunt or not, the video I attached summarizes that style of fighting quite well!  It ain't a ****ing kung fu movie.
 
Night Ninja said:
jerrbear said:
just a comment on your weapon weight argument. Yes people think two handed weapons being so big that they must weigh a ton. in which case you are right, they dont. but you forget that holding a two handed sword that is almost 4 foot long at one end multiplies its feel of weight, try taking a metal pole that is about 4ft long and weighs around 5.5lbs (average size and weight of a claymore) and holding it at one end straight out from you, trust me it will seem alot heavier than it is. Now im no expert on this, but i think it has something to do with your hand placement being farther away from the center of gravity of the blade.

Two words: mass distribution. As ares007 has said, the pommel and hilt furniture act as counterweights. Additionally, the blade often tapers (both profile taper and distal taper) towards the point. Read this article for more information.

myrmidon said:
lol you should go to one of the recreational medieval fight tournaments and watch double handed sword users get torn a new one by the shield/small one handed hammer users.

quite funny to watch such a pissy little hammer wreaking havoc

Doubled handed swords do suffer in the context of re-enactment, since a lot of those fighters act like they have nothing to lose. They know they won't die for sure, so a lot of the techniques that have an inherent 'threat factor' don't work. It's a bit different when you don't respawn.

Also, shields do give an immense advantage in M&B. It's acknowledged by the bulk of experienced players. It's the newbies that haven't mastered the little tricks to strike faster that are complaining about how they can't respond to an opponent even though they're using the biggest melee crutch in the game.

othr said:
WTF not a single cut on that tree trunk in that video!!! And that's exactly what you should get for spamming in M&B, lots of noise, little effect!

Here is a video of a REAL fight: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jj1hBxyw2pw

and on a more serious note, this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFAKTjOQJwQ&NR=1 between 1:12 and 1:15, look how the guy loses balance after a powerful swing.  Loss of balance = dead, where is this loss of balance?!

Idiot. It's called pell training. He's cutting against a stationary target with a blunted training sword for practice.

And please, you're using Cold Steel's promotional video as a proof. They make excellent knives, but they aren't swordsmen or martial artists. To make things worse, you're using a video of a bloody zweihander, which is several centuries removed from the main time period from which M&B draws its inspiration. A zweihander is NOT a longsword (bastard sword, epee du guerre, etc). Additionally, the handling of a zweihander has more in common with a polearm than a longsword.

He is cutting a chunk of meat with a 1.5m blade you ****wit.  And what exactly is this 'period' where this game is placed?  If this is the 13th century bastard swords, glaives and other **** just does not fit in.  Now piss off before I get really mad.
 
othr said:
He is cutting a chunk of meat with a 1.5m blade you ****wit.  And what exactly is this 'period' where this game is placed?  If this is the 13th century bastard swords, glaives and other **** just does not fit in.  Now piss off before I get really mad.

This video, you blithering imbecile.
 
What is it exactly that you do not get?

Do you have difficulties comprehending what I wrote?  What does that video have to do with my previous statement, the one that was directed to you, you halfwitted moron?
 
othr said:
WTF not a single cut on that tree trunk in that video!!! And that's exactly what you should get for spamming in M&B, lots of noise, little effect!

This is clearly directed at the pell training video.

Night Ninja said:
Idiot. It's called pell training. He's cutting against a stationary target with a blunted training sword for practice.

And here's my snappy response.

othr said:
He is cutting a chunk of meat with a 1.5m blade you ****wit.  And what exactly is this 'period' where this game is placed?  If this is the 13th century bastard swords, glaives and other **** just does not fit in.  Now piss off before I get really mad.

More idiocy from you.

Night Ninja said:
This video, you blithering imbecile.

And my response to your idiocy.
 
OK, so you seem capable of at least some rational thought.  Why is my comment about cutting meat near the link to a video that has nothing to do with it?  WHERE IS THE ****ING MEAT IN THAT VIDEO?
 
As a person who owns many swords, I can tell you one thing. Swinging two handed swords should be fast. One is after all using two hands to swing it. They are much easier to control than using one handers. One reason they should be fast is the dual movement between both of a persons wrists, which are the base of a two handed swing. One handers get one hand and one wrist, why should they be faster? Two handers get the torque of both arms and alternating wrist movements. From my little knowledge of physics the speed at the tip of a longer sword will be faster then at the base. Kinda how golf works.

Yes they light as hell as well. 6-8 pounds might have been heavy in those days standards though. They didn't have protein shakes or steroids.

A lot of people ask for shield bashes and all sorts of stuff. Its a game and can't have everything in real life. If said was done then I would want grappling, being able tackle, headbutts, smacking people with helmets, using corpses as arrow walls, and grabbing sword by blade then swing the hilt to attack weak point for massive damage.

Sometimes its asking too much for a game made by, I believe, two people.
 
jomunga said:
Sometimes its asking too much for a game made by, I believe, two people.

It was two people - now I believe they've increased to a massive eight...

I'd love a shield bash, but you're quite right... for a game to be made by a tiny team, and have the best damn melee combat system in a computer game? That's damn impressive.

I love that you can read guides on re-enactment fighting, or even period fencing manuals, and some of it is actually relevant to Warband. Not everything, of course, but in comparison to other simulations of melee combat? Short of something extreme like Toribash, I've never seen anything else come close, and I've been looking for at least ten years.
 
othr said:
OK, so you seem capable of at least some rational thought.  Why is my comment about cutting meat near the link to a video that has nothing to do with it?  WHERE IS THE ****ING MEAT IN THAT VIDEO?


.....

you just keep digging yourself deeper and deeper. For the last time ZWEIHANDER IS THE WRONG TIME PERIOD. Additionally, that zweihander in your video is not even historically accurate. The two handed swords in mount and blade most accurately reflect the German longsword.

Now, it does not matter in the least what you are swinging at, but this discussion isn't even about that. It is about the speed a person can attack and change directions in, which is exactly what the ARMA video demonstrates with a period specific, historically accurate weapon. Not only does your video not demonstrate real combat movements, but its the wrong kind of sword.
 
The 'german' longsword is not period appropriate either.  I encountered you in the other thread and you keep on repeating the same thing over and over.  Just relax with the zweihander, the video demonstrates how force of inertia affects balance, nothing else.

 
othr said:
The 'german' longsword is not period appropriate either.  I encountered you in the other thread and you keep on repeating the same thing over and over.  Just relax with the zweihander, the video demonstrates how force of inertia affects balance, nothing else.

It demonstrates how an oversized weapon designed for shock troops can throw off the balance of some overly padded, middle-aged man who's never been trained in the proper use of a sword.

 
othr said:
Just relax with the zweihander, the video demonstrates how force of inertia affects balance, nothing else.
Yes, when the user has **** technique. Here is a much better swordsman, also doing a more powerful cut. I don't see him losing his balance.

And here is a reason why everyone should fall over after doing a kick.
 
Stabbing Hobo said:
And here is a reason why everyone idiots should fall over after doing a kick.
There's a lot more to kicks than just throwing your foot in the air.  Try and kick something solid like a large punching bag/person and you'll fall right on your ass too, unless you know what you're doing.  Kicks are extremely powerful to those who know how to use them. (ie know how to position their bodies and the foot that isn't kicking correctly)
 
othr said:
and on a more serious note, this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFAKTjOQJwQ&NR=1 between 1:12 and 1:15, look how the guy loses balance after a powerful swing.  Loss of balance = dead, where is this loss of balance?!
That specific example is pretty poor, that one's more down to using too much power for such a "soft" target, ergo more to do with skill than some inherent unbalance in the weapon. As well as what NN said and Stabbing Hobo showed in his video.
 
And it demonstrates how a very poor recreation of the real thing can mess up your balance (especially when you don't swing it right).

All of Cold Steel's weapons are not historically accurate. They are more like steel rods with edges added to them.

Historically, swords were balanced in a way that a trained swordsman could strike in the manner shown in that video I posted.


In addition, if you think that those strikes that the guy in the red shirt is making are weak, realize that even though blunt, the sword is still cutting into the wood somewhat. At one point, it almost gets stuck. Do you want to take the place of that wooden pell? If so, make sure you've got a butt load of money for the medical bills.

Also, even though big, a properly balanced "zweihander" (or bidenhander) can still be wielded in the same manner as a longsword, though not quite as quickly.

TheRighteousMan said:
Stabbing Hobo said:
And here is a reason why everyone idiots should fall over after doing a kick.
There's a lot more to kicks than just throwing your foot in the air.  Try and kick something solid like a large punching bag/person and you'll fall right on your ass too, unless you know what you're doing.  Kicks are extremely powerful to those who know how to use them. (ie know how to position their bodies and the foot that isn't kicking correctly)
I think Stabbing Hobo was making fun of othr's video :razz:
 
I realize that with proper training you will learn how to preserve your balance and how to cause loss thereof in your opponen with a well balanced weapont.  Right now only two such techniques exist in MP warband, one being this 'chamber blocking' and the other one more of a bug, I assume, where you kick and execute your attack almost instantaneously.

I'm not a fan of either and would like more depth added to the system, such as, lets say swinging in fast succession, over and over, should cause some form of balance loss and leave you open to an attack.  Right now your opponent can lock you down quite well with just mashing his attack button and you have to resort to more 'advanced techniques' to do anything about it.  This is where the system needs improvement in my opinion.

That said, these discussions usually turn into crap and I think I participated in enough of these to give TW an idea on how the system could be improved.  Hopefully they read these things and have some plans for further improvements.
 
othr said:
I realize that with proper training you will learn how to preserve your balance and how to cause loss thereof in your opponen with a well balanced weapont.  Right now only two such techniques exist in MP warband, one being this 'chamber blocking' and the other one more of a bug, I assume, where you kick and execute your attack almost instantaneously.
How are these two techniques (chamber blocking and kickslashing) relevant to 'preserving your balance'? As far as I know, not nearly falling over when swinging a sword mostly has to do with pure swinging technique.
 
kingofnoobia said:
othr said:
I realize that with proper training you will learn how to preserve your balance and how to cause loss thereof in your opponent with a well balanced weapon.  Right now only two such techniques exist in MP warband, one being this 'chamber blocking' and the other one more of a bug, I assume, where you kick and execute your attack almost instantaneously.
How are these two techniques (chamber blocking and kickslashing) relevant to 'preserving your balance'? As far as I know, not nearly falling over when swinging a sword mostly has to do with pure swinging technique.

I highlighted the relevant part for you.
 
I say just this: Or you keep same speed, or you add stun. No way you slow down and nothing as it would become 1h spam.
 
othr said:
kingofnoobia said:
othr said:
I realize that with proper training you will learn how to preserve your balance and how to cause loss thereof in your opponent with a well balanced weapon.  Right now only two such techniques exist in MP warband, one being this 'chamber blocking' and the other one more of a bug, I assume, where you kick and execute your attack almost instantaneously.
How are these two techniques (chamber blocking and kickslashing) relevant to 'preserving your balance'? As far as I know, not nearly falling over when swinging a sword mostly has to do with pure swinging technique.
I highlighted the relevant part for you.
Well, thanks, but I asked for how it is relevant to 'preserving your balance', not 'how to cause loss thereof in your opponent'. By rereading your post, I realise that both of these techniques refer to the second. I simply was confused because the whole discussion was about preserving your own balance while swinging a blade.
 
Back
Top Bottom